How Can We Keep Our Schools Safe?

Do drug cartels, gangs or any criminal follow law’s currently on the books and will new law’s restricting high capacity mags and ar’s be strictly followed by them?

No.

Will it affect law abiding citizens?

Yes.

Do criminals or people planning harm worry about following laws?

Not that I’m aware of.

Will they find a way around any new legislation or law’s?

That’s a pretty obvious, loaded question.

Most law abiding citizens I know have safes and are at least somewhat vigilant about locking up their firearms, especially ones with hand guns and ar’s. I am not ignorant, yes there’s still a lot of firearms of all kinds buried in a closet or under a mattress.

Like I keep saying, read and study. There’s already gun control. To buy a firearm from a store, there’s law’s in place and back ground checks. There’s ways around the law’s already on the books. I’m not sure how more legislation and law’s will effectively or efficiently curb criminals? If it was geared towards criminals ways and means of acquiring firearms I would be all for it. But it seems like to me making it against the law to steal stuff, isn’t going to totally eliminate stealing. Study, research how these shooters are getting these firearms. Make decisions based on facts vs broad brush stroke blanket law’s that only affect law abiding citizens, that might not affect criminals at all. There’s so many law’s on the books for drunk drivers, but they still find ways to drive vehicles, yet we don’t blame the vehicle and try to limit law abiding vehicle owners to curb drunk driving. Drunks find ways around law’s, revoked licenses, etc.

Not against curbing a clear route that criminals take advantage of getting firearms that’s factual vs fictional.

Things that need to be done are defending school buildings themselves way better. That, I think can be agreed on while we find ways to help address firearm acquisition, mentally ill, threats made, social media clues, etc. Defend the kids, teacher’s and find ways to make the building safer and not such an easy target.

It’s scary to know how hapless and easy of a target schools are. What’s scarier to me is focusing on things that divert attention onto things that might not have any effect on curbing these shootings at all vs taking a stance and defending kids in school that are truly effective to eliminate a threat as quickly and efficiently as possible.

So do away with all firearms, will that make our children safe? let us look back on our history. How many of you know of this incident?
Andrew Kehoe blew up the school in Bath Township, Mich. Google it. How do we combat this? I know it was a different time and there were different problems facing people but those people were just as dead as our kids today.
So tell me again How Can We Keep Our Schools Safe?

By focusing on the issues.. mental health among young adults for sure. History shows most are 15+ males. I read an interesting article that was in the NY Times (yeah that one) and it talked about how most school shootings are males… they cited that in the last 50 years, during the feminist movement, girls have been told, your better than boys, which equated to boys are less. Look at the top 10 students in most classes… 9 girls, MAYBE 1 boy. Why is that ? These kids are very impressionable and are just developing their life skills that they will need for the rest of their lives. I think we need to look at all aspects of why it happens.. it does not happen because there are AR15’s… that is just the tool. Take it away and they find another tool. We need to keep after this as a society… let’s not let them turn it into a polar political thing… it is not. Liberal, Conservative and even us Independents want this to stop.

big_g wrote:

By focusing on the issues.. mental health among young adults for sure. History shows most are 15+ males. I read an interesting article that was in the NY Times (yeah that one) and it talked about how most school shootings are males… they cited that in the last 50 years, during the feminist movement, girls have been told, your better than boys, which equated to boys are less. Look at the top 10 students in most classes… 9 girls, MAYBE 1 boy. Why is that ? These kids are very impressionable and are just developing their life skills that they will need for the rest of their lives. I think we need to look at all aspects of why it happens.. it does not happen because there are AR15’s… that is just the tool. Take it away and they find another tool. We need to keep after this as a society… let’s not let them turn it into a polar political thing… it is not. Liberal, Conservative and even us Independents want this to stop.

Is it really mental health or the drugs used? Look at the side affects for ADHD and depression drugs…the military has restrictions on letting the people who use these drugs join. The government classifies most of the drugs the same as crystal meth

Jeremy wrote:

Is it really mental health or the drugs used? Look at the side affects for ADHD and depression drugs…the military has restrictions on letting the people who use these drugs join. The government classifies most of the drugs the same as crystal meth

Is it really a mental health issue? Yes, absolutely. You need to figure out what’s causing it in the first place so it can be prevented.

biggill wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Jeremy wrote:</div>
Is it really mental health or the drugs used? Look at the side affects for ADHD and depression drugs…the military has restrictions on letting the people who use these drugs join. The government classifies most of the drugs the same as crystal meth

Is it really a mental health issue? Yes, absolutely. You need to figure out what’s causing it in the first place so it can be prevented.

These are all good questions… why all the ADHD ? Did kids in the past have it at these rates ? How were they treated ? Are too many drugs being administered, show 1 symptom and your prescribed ? Side effects of these drugs also are not healthy for sure. I believe the drugs and mental health are definitely related and which is causing more harm ? Lots of questions… hopefully people smarter than us can answer, but I don’t think big pharma will be ready to step up on their own.

Is ADHD really an issue, or is it kids drinking too much soda/energy drinks? I haven’t searched on when the ADHD drugs come on the market but I would bet the bad ones were approved about 3-7 years before Columbine

We see it with all the young kids in school. They are prescribed medication, and the parents don’t given it to their kids. Or, the kids are way over pe
Prescribed.
Unless you work with these kids first hand, it’s really hard to understand what the medications do – and at what level.

Many of us take 1000 milligram of Tylenol…maybe 1500mlg. But most of the mind altering drugs are very small doses. .1 yes point one miligram can make a huge difference. A great psychiatrists can get the dose or correct med close, but it can take months to see the INITIAL affects and a year or longer to get it dialed in.

Now, the biggest problem. Call a psychiatrist and it can be 4 to 6 months to get an appt, if you can get in at all. If your a new patient, looking for a first appt with a phsyc., could take over a year to find one accepting new patients.
That is a huge F’N problem in this country.

And my belief is that much of this is being caused by diet and environment. The cold shower thread I stared a week or two ago was on kind of a serious note. There is evidence that humans constantly being in such a comfortable environment all the time can cause serious issues. This causes your blood to become acidic and can cause mental heath issue like depression and anxiety.

Exercise and adrenaline can help you achieve a more alkaline blood which can cure many of these health issues.

These aren’t ‘criminal masterminds’ or something skirting the laws or choosing not to abide by them, they are young adults buying guns with little trouble doing so. How many of these stories start with, “shooter Johnny tried to legally acquire a firearm but wasn’t able to because of x,y,z so he stole one from a neighbor’s house?” Even the shooters with criminal backgrounds are oftentimes legally purchasing them straight from gun shops. There is a VERY real chance that making guns harder to obtain through new regulations makes a potential shooter re-think their actions or run out of time(summer vacation, gets picked up for something else, etc). Again, frequency and severity.

I mean sure, gun laws won’t stop the cartel or drug lords or whatever the heck you guys are talking about from getting guns, but last I checked we aren’t talking about stopping drug kingpins from assaulting our schools? These are just deflecting arguments.

It’s funny, I remember talking in a lot of Mille Lacs threads about lack of mental health help on reservations and how hard those kids have it. I seem to remember a lot of folks here saying those were just ‘excuses’, we shouldn’t make ‘excuses’ for those kids, or they ‘get enough help from the government’. They should buck up and ‘make something of themselves’.

Just so I’m clear, native american kids growing up with NO access to mental health should figure it out themselves, but these other kids are victims of a system where there are too many meds, or not enough, or not enough psychiatrists or good ones or something?

https://mymemes-biz.cdn.ampproject.org/i/mymemes.biz/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/popcorn-eating-meme-59db25da84c40-768×656.jpg

philtickelson wrote:

Just so I’m clear, native american kids growing up with NO access to mental health should figure it out themselves, but these other kids are victims of a system where there are too many meds, or not enough, or not enough psychiatrists or good ones or something?

For the record, I’ve never been one to suggest ignoring Native American issues.

I don’t understand how that is even relevant in this conversation. Mental health in general needs some serious attention.

Our government needs to do so much more for promoting healthy living. Why? Because they are responsible for helping the major food and pharma companies profit off of products and chemicals they know will sacrifice our health.

I read an article recently about how the major sugar companies did studies on the effects of sugar on the human body back in the 60’s. The buried the results in fears it would hurt profits.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/21/well/eat/sugar-industry-long-downplayed-potential-harms-of-sugar.html?referer=https://www.google.com/

Our government needs to protect us from crap like this and whatever else is happening out there.

Please attach that thread about the natives, where that happened & we can talk about that also, it’s all about mental health. Period. We need to keep moving forward and not come up with excuses to stop, yet again.

philtickelson wrote:

These aren’t ‘criminal masterminds’ or something skirting the laws or choosing not to abide by them, they are young adults buying guns with little trouble doing so. How many of these stories start with, “shooter Johnny tried to legally acquire a firearm but wasn’t able to because of x,y,z so he stole one from a neighbor’s house?” Even the shooters with criminal backgrounds are oftentimes legally purchasing them straight from gun shops. There is a VERY real chance that making guns harder to obtain through new regulations makes a potential shooter re-think their actions or run out of time(summer vacation, gets picked up for something else, etc). Again, frequency and severity.

Prove factually where they are getting firearms?

Why are they targeting schools?

If they went after the president, guess what, they’d be taken down with force and firearms. Yet our kids aren’t worth that same protection? We need to make schools safer. They might not be criminal masterminds, but we are the fool’s not guarding the herd, when there’s wolves around. If we take guns away, will we be completely safe and why not take away everything that has potential to kill people? A knife is not as dramatic, or as lethal on a group of people all at once, but knives kill far more people than you’d think and each one of those people who died, although one at a time, is still tragic for their families and loved ones. If we look at the numbers, we’d be shocked at how many people die from being stabbed. If we could just stop some of those tragedies it would sure be worth putting some sort of law’s on knives, blunt objects, cars, texting machines, etc that would prevent at least some of the deaths. Not as glamorous for the media to pay the bills with ratings and commercial time though, so loss of life is more dramatic and more scary, if wet can demonise the tool used and up the ratings. Fear mongering is diverting attention from real solutions, guns aren’t going to vanish or become unobtainable with more law’s, there’s a lot floating around. Tightening up loop holes might help, but it won’t solve the bigger picture. We are stuck staring at a singular puzzle piece that ignores the big picture.

I’m no firearms expert, but I’d guess firearm sale’s and hc mags have gone up substantially again. The fear mongering does nothing but increase demand. It’s like shooting yourself in the foot to spite your face.

We need a comprehensive background check that incorporates the legal
system, mental health agencies and schools that all feed one
data base. This should tie into a 50 State system.

A 10 day waiting system is reasonable.

No waiting period if they want to buy a bow and arrows.

tweed

If congress cannot even do these few things to protect our
teachers and kids…..vote their asses out.

tweed

jime wrote:

We need a comprehensive background check that incorporates the legal
system, mental health agencies and schools that all feed one
data base. This should tie into a 50 State system.

A 10 day waiting system is reasonable.

No waiting period if they want to buy a bow and arrows.

tweed

If congress cannot even do these few things to protect our
teachers and kids…..vote their asses out.

tweed

I thought the mental health system was tied in but most states fail to make any reports.
Why should schools be tied into a background check system?

See https://www.healthline.com/health/adhd/history#1990s
ADHD cases began to climb significantly in the 1990s

And when did the mass shootings climb significantly?

I agree Tom its one of the best suggestions I’ve heard yet and nothing wrong with it. This gun does a lot of damage and should be mildly restricted because of that reason. Raising the minimum age to 21 is another good idea because of the mature responsibility that comes along with owning this rifle. Because of its power my own personal suggestion is a 30 days waiting period, I know a lot of guys don’t want to wait that long but most tempers cool by then. Must have a permit to carry is a good one Tom, I know its a pain to have to get a permit but it sure would help. How about a 24 hr. (national) hotline that all law enforcement gets, like a 711 number and someone on the other end answers 24 hrs. a day, any suspicious firearm related acts (threats) can be reported and a law passed stating that they must be followed up,,, its too bad but things aren’t the way they used to be.

This mental health talk. It seems that it will go head to head with the 15 years of privicy laws. What would be the threshold? ADHD, depression or civil commitment? You can recover from depression. Is it on your record forever? Is it anybody elses bussiness? How about due process? Are we going to need to double our courts just to handle the caseload?

I bring this up because last year collecting paperwork for submitting to my medical reimbursement plan I was not allowed to see any of my children’s EOB’s (estimate of benefits). After the age of 12 without them logging into the website and getting them for me. They are underage and I pay for their coverage. Yet I was not allowed access. So you think we will just be able to start transmitting personal data to some giant database. No mater what they do I see a dozen years of lawsuits all the way to the SCOTUS.

gizmoguy wrote:

This mental health talk. It seems that it will go head to head with the 15 years of privicy laws. What would be the threshold? ADHD, depression or civil commitment? You can recover from depression. Is it on your record forever? Is it anybody elses bussiness? How about due process? Are we going to need to double our courts just to handle the caseload?

I bring this up because last year collecting paperwork for submitting to my medical reimbursement plan I was not allowed to see any of my children’s EOB’s (estimate of benefits). After the age of 12 without them logging into the website and getting them for me. They are underage and I pay for their coverage. Yet I was not allowed access. So you think we will just be able to start transmitting personal data to some giant database. No mater what they do I see a dozen years of lawsuits all the way to the SCOTUS.

This is something that has had me wondering just how the government is going to go about securing/obtaining this information. Does providing this personal information assure that it stays only on the application for a permit/firearm purchase for as long as the person is deemed afflicted or will this information migrate to other areas where it can affect the person’s life without he/she knowing?

I think its fairly safe to say that sane persons don’t go around do mass shootings or simply killing for that matter. So where is the “mentally impaired” line drawn between sane and a mass shooter going to be drawn as far as who can and cannot gets guns? In our last election we had one candidate bragging about grabbing women by their muffins and saying they loved it. In some circles this could be deemed a sign of serious mental impairment. Should this person be denied a firearm?

I think Gizmoguy has brought up an aspect in all of this that has slipped right past most….that anything dealing gun laws and data privacy laws and mental illness will take years and years to solidify into anything meaningful while the rest of the country is gaining momentum in gun restriction areas. Right now these people don’t want anything to do with mental illness issues because they don’t see the correlation. They do however see guns and mass shootings correlate with gun owners, legal or not legal gun owners, and their ability to buy/obtain them. I see a whole different trend here with this incident and for all you hyper-pro gun advocates you need to look past stupid and start looking at ways that address the ownership issue. This is what’s going to bite you.

Steve Murphy wrote:

So do away with all firearms, will that make our children safe?

Not one single person has suggested this here. Not one. Stay focused guys

Jeremy wrote:

Is it really mental health or the drugs used? Look at the side affects for ADHD and depression drugs…the military has restrictions on letting the people who use these drugs join. The government classifies most of the drugs the same as crystal meth

Yes, it really is a mental health issue. The availability of drugs to help treat a condition did NOT create the condition in the first place any more than the invention of the Band-Aid created cut fingers.

Your statement about how the “government classifies” these drugs is ridiculous. This classification has ONLY to do with how a criminal will be treated if they are caught selling or illegally dealing in these controlled substances. This has nothing to do with their efficacy, safety, or legal uses.

ADHD and depression are real illnesses. The question of “Why so many more cases now?” is a red herring. Before the early 1700s, cancer was rarely recorded as a cause of death because of limited knowledge or the condition.
As knowledge grew and the disease became better understood, the number of diagnoses rose. Many studies have concluded that it is unlikely there are dramatically more cases of ADHD and depression now, we just diagnose them and classify them differently. In the past, many kids with these conditions were classified as mentally challenged or as having learning disabilities and sent to institutions or special schools.

I can tell you from the experience a close relative of mine has had with her daughter that unlike what is being portrayed here, children (and their parents) are NOT prescribed ADHD and anti-depressants like they are candy. Anyone portraying it this way obviously has zero knowledge and credibility.

My cousin’s daughter was a normal, happy little girl until the age of 8. Then, very suddenly, she had severe inability to sit still, concentrate, focus and to learn. Having seen her I can say that back in the 70s she almost certainly would have been classified as being mentally retarded or mentally ill back then. NO, she was not a Red Bull or junk food addict, her mother is a nurse and a natural foods freak, so I doubt this girl had more than one soda per month. It impacted every aspect of her life and her family’s life. Drug treatment was offered only after multiple other therapies were tried.

Yes, the drugs have side effects and dosage has to be carefully calibrated. No caring parent would go through this if they felt there were ANY other options that would really help their child. The exception to this only proves the rule. This is certainly a case where the treatment produces other issues that just have to be lived with, but that doesn’t make it all beer and skittles.

People trying to draw a straight line between ADHD and depression drugs and these school shootings are doing everyone including kids a disservice. Stop treating mental illness like it’s not real, to me that attitude is much closer to the cause of school shootings than anything else.

Grouse

FishBlood&RiverMud wrote:

Heck guys, the poop I do on the river as flipping dangerous as you’ll think it is, isn’t nearly as dangerous as driving to work. And it is only dangerous to ME and not others around me.

1,600 children under the age of 15 are killed in car accidents each year. Over 2 million injured.

I don’t recall shootings numbers but I do know they aren’t more than a squirt of urine in a bucket in comparison.

I don’t care much about school shootings when we allow people to drive thousands of pounds recklessly at high speeds at your children and family everyday.

What does your river antics or car crashes have to do with this? Car crashes are ACCIDENTS and unfortunately a part of life. The act of a young individual purchasing an AR rifle and walking into a school taking innocent lives repeatedly is NO accident. C’mon man.

To quote a “supposed” quote by Clint Eastwood…..

” Gun control because criminals have too many guns is like castrating yourself because your neighbor has too many kids”.

Great argument here.

big_g wrote:

We need to keep moving forward and not come up with excuses to stop, yet again.

Yes!! Exactly – thank you!

All the guys talking about car crashes and ‘taking all my guns away’ are just adding to the noise and confusion and then nothing gets done. This really shouldn’t be that hard. We have a very repeatable pattern going on here. Someone said it before, 15 year old + males, mentally disturbed, access to AR weapons, easy targets at school. Let’s focus on these select issues that are common to most of the problem and go from there. Nothing will be a 100% cure but we have to start somewhere and do something.

One of the things that are in everybody’s way is trying to figure out (all) the right answers before any regulations are passed, that’s been part of the problem so far to the point of its became overwhelming. How about just passing a 2 or 3 regulations that are on the road to an accurate and comprehensive list of regulations. Meanwhile having to do nothing because we cant find (all) the right answers only slows us down, pass just basic regulations to get the ball rolling,,, that’s like two teams confused as to who’s goals to play tward’s to start the game, who cares just get on with the game because the score comes out the same anyway. I think a lot of times people over think just about anything, when doing ((something)) is atleast walking down the right path on regulations twards the final answers, anything would help. People learn to walk one step at a time so take the first step and build on that, atleast its the right direction.

Permit to own any assault design rifle, age of 21 because of maturity, reasonable clip size. In Texas its legal to own a 50 caliber machine gun, but you have to go through regulations there too if you want one, like paying $1,500 for the permit and a background check. I’m not anti gun because I hunt myself but there’s not a whole lot of difference between an AR-15 and a machine gun when its comes to doing damage, it just takes a few seconds longer to get the same amount of rounds off.

The current members of Congress will drag their feet on any changes. For example, we had one party in control of the Senate, House, and White House and still could not pass the health care legislative changes that most campaigned on. There is ZERO incentive for lawmakers to move hastily on anything whatsoever regardless of party. The elections in our country are so far from being controlled by ordinary citizens that it’s disgusting (but that’s another can of worms).

Changes to firearm laws and mental health will take bipartisan support. If members of ONE political party cannot get it together when they are in the drivers seat, how do we expect those who vote against one another out of spite to bring about change?

As a moderately conservative person owning plenty of guns, here are the changes I’d like to see but am not counting on:

1. Reevaluate how the background checks system works to purchase firearms, especially towards males under the age of 21. It’s not a secret that young, troubled males are the most likely to take lives this way. If we “profile” young males on auto insurance with high rates, can’t we follow the trend and ramp up background checks or waiting periods for young males?

2. 21 years or older to purchase AR style weapons (I realize an AR isn’t that different from other rifles, but it’s the relative ease of use and # of accurate rounds fired by inexperienced people that distinguish this weapon from others)

3. Waiting period of 10-14 days for all AR style purchase, 30 days if under the age of 25.

4. Look closely at the ratios of counselors and social workers to students in any school. Perhaps ONE counselor or social worker for every ~400-500 students isn’t enough when statistics clearly state more than 1/10 people will experience mental illnesses in their lifetime.

5. Stop spewing stupid ideas about arming teachers. That’s ridiculous and won’t (nor should it ever) happen. Most of the people in here thinking that’s a great idea would get trampled by a few dozen unarmed teens “walking” to lunch on the average day. What do you think would happen in the chaotic event of a shooting with hundreds of people sprinting towards exits in crowded hallways, screaming, alarms sounding, etc.? A teacher with a pistol working through the hallways would do more harm than good. Even bringing the idea up only deflects attention from more effective solutions or discussions.

buckybadger wrote:

Stop spewing stupid ideas about arming teachers.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!! 100% in agreement on that.

(Although in fairness and civility, I don’t want to call something stupid just because I don’t agree with it. I just think if you spend a few seconds thinking about real logistics you realize it won’t work.)

mossydan wrote:

In Texas its legal to own a 50 caliber machine gun, but you have to go through regulations there too if you want one, like paying $1,500 for the permit and a background check.

Sorry mossy that is incorrect…..all fully automatic weapons are regulated by the firearms act of 1934….. you could own a full auto buy paying for a Class 3 special tax,$200, for every gun. That included a FBI background check,fingerprints and an OK by a local official……I almost tried to get one in 1982 to buy a WW2 .45 Thompson for an investment …..They stopped that in 1986 I think….

buckybadger wrote:

1. Reevaluate how the background checks system works to purchase firearms, especially towards males under the age of 21. It’s not a secret that young, troubled males are the most likely to take lives this way. If we “profile” young males on auto insurance with high rates, can’t we follow the trend and ramp up background checks or waiting periods for young males?

I agree with much of what you wrote and see where you’re trying to go, but this point about “enhancing” background checks has been mentioned several times, so I think some are not understanding what the background check actually looks for.

The point I want to make is a background check can only reveal what gets recorded and what the law requires. Right now, there are no laws requiring the collection background data that would allow the check to reveal things like terroristic threats, erratic behavior, calls to the police reporting suspicions of mental illness, etc.

AND there’s no law that bans a potential gun buyer from being able to purchase a firearme due to the behaviors above.

Bottom line is that the background check can’t find information that is not there in the first place and it cannot be used to block a purchase if there is no law saying that must be done.

No amount of “enhanced” background checks would have blocked the FL shooter from getting a gun because there is no comprehensive reporting of “threat/ high-risk beahvior”.

Of course, you can see the issue here. Government profiling being used to block someone from doing something based on “reports”, suspicion, innuendo, etc… This gets us on to slippery Constitutional ground quickly.

buckybadger wrote:

5. Stop spewing stupid ideas about arming teachers. That’s ridiculous and won’t (nor should it ever) happen. Most of the people in here thinking that’s a great idea would get trampled by a few dozen unarmed teens “walking” to lunch on the average day. What do you think would happen in the chaotic event of a shooting with hundreds of people sprinting towards exits in crowded hallways, screaming, alarms sounding, etc.?

I would think the epic failure of the on-scene sheriff’s deputy in Florida who sat outside with his pistol in his hand while the killer raged inside would show the total fallacy if this idea. There already WAS a highly trained person with a gun on the scene and look what happened!

As one military vet put it, nobody knows anything about how they’d perform in a firefight until they’ve BEEN in a firefight. There is absolutely no way teachers could be trained to perform to the level that would be required to be effective.

Grouse

Grouse