To add to the forward facing sonar discussion, I think Jason had a number of very good points. I completely agree with his points on gps mapping, braid, spot lock trolling motors, etc. Also agree that FFS helps but the most expensive boat on the lake doesn’t catch the most fish
He has some good points and is a very reasonable person. Doesn’t come across as being for or against it and tries to see every point of view. We could use more people like this in everyday life to be honest.
I do disagree with some of his points though. There are young anglers on pro bass tours that can literally only compete using it. When its not in play, they tank, and their success reflects it. There is a nickname for them: scope wizards. No need to specifically state who these guys are anymore. Its very widely known who they are by now.
I don’t think its getting banned in recreational fishing. There may be limitations or restrictions in tournament fishing, like what the PMTT has already done though. What might happen is just tighter restrictions on harvest and bag limits, especially for species like panfish and walleye.
Twice now I have heard on the JMO podcast about fish reacting negatively to FFS.
One of the speakers was Al Lindner.
So is it a matter of time before the sonar pressure the fish feel will shut them down?
All this talk about technology. It’s my belief that GPS and mapping has had the largest impact on fishing in todays technology world.
All this talk about technology. It’s my belief that GPS and mapping has had the largest impact on fishing in todays technology world.
100% AGREE
All this talk about technology. It’s my belief that GPS and mapping has had the largest impact on fishing in todays technology world.
I think youtube has had a bigger impact with teaching people how to fish or how to use certain units. I admittedly would not be nearly as effective without things i have taught myself on youtube or articles in general.
I have heard from multiple tournament guys and guides that fish can feel the high intensity sonar of FFS and will avoid it.
Hell I remember about 15 years ago on Rainy, our guide would through out a triangle of marker bouys and then shut his 2D lowrance off because it “negatively effected walleyes”.
I assume anyone that shuts off their sonar unit to avoid spooking fish is also shutting off their electric motor too. Certainly the vibration and noise of a rotating prop is causing more fish to spook than the beam of a sonar unit.
If a guy has to go in full stealth mode, so be it.
I have heard from multiple tournament guys and guides that fish can feel the high intensity sonar of FFS and will avoid it.
Not saying that may not be true, But I don’t think the Signal on FFS is much different than downward facing sonar. It sure doesn’t seem to effect the bite of the pro’s using it. As others have said there is other noise that I think would effect the fish as much as if not more
I suspect it’s guys who don’t want to be shamed for using it. FFS is just a continuation of the dumbing down of America. Why learn how to find fish when you can swipe a card and get something that will do it for you.
On big lakes especially GPS mapping by far puts more fish in the boat.
Think back to before accurate GPS mapping fishing Mille Lacs lake.
Finding off shore structure on the big lakes is the biggest game changer.
FFS kicks out way more signal than a regular graph. There is three transducers on the unit. Fish are getting conditioned to it and spooking or just not eating when they feel/hear it. Certain species and certain conditions are more noticeable. I have had to turn mine off due to spooking fish on certain bites. I am guessing we will see fish continue to get more and more aware of it as they become more popular.
Back before I got a livescope I have been on bites where I had turn off regular flashers to get bit.
The most belly aching I’ve noticed comes from the professional tournament type fisherman… Simply stated, the professional tournament organizers need to make a decision, that being “is FFS able to be used or not” during said tournament…
In Wisconsin this Spring. Question #22 specifically asks the voter if “FFS should be banned from all Wisconsin waters…” Should this lead to law changes, I really hope we don’t see a slippery slope towards looking backwards at fishing technology we also use such as GPS/Mapping/Waypoints,
GPS guided trolling motors, along with other sonar features such as SI/DI technology…
Personally, I wish people would just fish in their own boat, and I’ll fish out of mine… I won’t care what you do in yours, don’t concern yourself what I do in mine, “unless we are breaking the law…” Thats another rant…
Personally, I wish people would just fish in their own boat, and I’ll fish out of mine… I won’t care what you do in yours, don’t concern yourself what I do in mine, “unless we are breaking the law…” Thats another rant…
Out paddle fish snagging and was working an area for a couple hour. We knew there was 3 good size paddle fish in the area. I picked them up on side imaging. A boat with FFS came in and caught all three fish in less than 15 min. Scanned the area for more and left. No one broke the law. Our opportunity to catch a paddle fish in that area at that time was removed from another boat using FFS. 
I dont buy that FFS affects fish. There are so many vibrations in the water produced by your boat already. People used to say that Marcums scared fish and Vexilars didnt. LOL
I dont buy that FFS affects fish. There are so many vibrations in the water produced by your boat already. People used to say that Marcums scared fish and Vexilars didnt. LOL
I am curious, how many days have you fished with FFS?
Marcum’s, vexilars and other flashers do make negative fish more negative at times. I’ve seen it. Marcums kick out more power than Vex’s so they probably spook fish more. Just like FFS does more with 3 ducers compared to a flasher with 1. Ever swim when a graph is on? You can hear it. I can assure you that the fish do too.
I have had a year and only use it on the ice. Doesnt seem to bother the fish when I have used it. My buddy had a vex and I had a marcum yet I caught more fish than him the marcum must have attracted them. I could see it maybe affecting fish in super shallow water but in greater depths I doubt it. Heck there are lures that have audible vibrations they emit to emulate baitfish and those seem to work quite well. I can mark fish with my marcum and then turn on the FFS and the fish dont scatter so to me I dont see much effect.
I could certainly see how a live sonar transducer would emit more sonar beams than a standard one would. As to whether certain species of fish are “learning” that live sonar/FFS beams are something to avoid, I don’t know. Its certainly possible that in some situations highly pressured fish are noticing it. I could definitely see a muskie learning to avoid these sonar beams, especially out in an open water situation. They are usually the first species of fish to catch on to new types of pressure.
As I originally said, in certain conditions and with certain species you will see it. Sounds like you haven’t witnessed it yet but you will. Coho and herring in 50 feet over a rock bottom wouldn’t come within 15 feet of the livescope. They’d be swimming in the whole school would scatter. All my buddies around me with flashers were slaying. Turned mine off and started catching fish. Saw the same thing on red last year. Day one fish were fired up and we all caught them. Day two weather changed and the bite slowed down. I’d watch fish swimming in stop and turn around. Turned the livescope off and started catching em. Had a similar situation with flashers about five years ago on red.
Bob Benson was one of the first dedicated livescope guys for open water Muskies. Ask him about how the fish have smartened up to them.
If the fish hear a certain sound right before they have hooks rammed through their face they will start to get wary of that sound. People who fish a lot will notice this. That’s what you hear Al Linder and tournament fisherman talk about it. It’s not because they are ashamed they are using it like the boomer previously posted.
I have personally seen fish react negatively to fish with the garmin. So I believe it.
It’s all about $$$.
I have no reason to use this technology, but I would support the non-use of FFS if money is involved, like in any tournament that has a payout for anything and would also support any ruling that basically said all fish are immediately returned to the water if FFS is attached to the boat, so essentially saying that if any boat has the technology on board, the boat is catch and release only.
I thought fishing was supposed to be a “sport” but look at every sport and see how technology has affected each, even at high school levels, and even there as it pertains to how much money goes into off-season training at individual levels.
Michael Best brings up mapping and gps use as being detrimental to catching fish while youbetcha feels that Utube and, I assume, social media have turned the tables. All are valid, but I’d narrow it down to social media and then perhaps Utube.
I can say one thing with absolute certainty. I grew up poor and did not have any kind of access to anything electrical when I got my first boat and that meant I had to LEARN to fish. I had to pay attention to every detail. I keep notes in notebooks. I learned about the fish I learned about the different seasons. What extra money I had was spent on being able to go fish, not waste it on electronics. I eventually put a simple locator in the boat so I could track water depths. It had a thermometer in the transducer, but I never paid any attention to it because I wasn’t fishing directly off the transom. It had a flasher mode that I never used. I never worried about the battery dying because I had enough expeince to be able to find enough fish for a meal that night, but I have on more than one occasion watched people load up the boat after 15 minutes of deciding the dead battery that powered their locator and electric motor was going to end the trip. What a friggin waste!
If there was ever a bottom line to this whole fiasco with electronics its this:
LEARN TO FISH FIRST, then decide how important all this electrical crap really is.
If there was ever a bottom line to this whole fiasco with electronics its this:
LEARN TO FISH FIRST, then decide how important all this electrical crap really is.
Some of my buddies have FFS. It is a fantastic tool to learn more about how fish react. I notice things I have used since that has improved my catch rate that I would never have figured out without FFS. I see many pros and cons. I just don’t know where I stand.
Great vid. Agree with Jason on all points. Very well thought out. 
-J.
That is a great video with many good points.
I grew up in the era, like Jimmy Jones, where we learned to fish first. Back in the day I remember when the ole Green Box flasher came out. OMG the controversy that thing caused back in the day. Not to mention it was priced out of reach for many people. Eventually I was able to get a used one to put on the ole John Boat with the suction cup that came with it.
Back then we only fished a handful of lakes. Now I could see the water depth. But what I found was I was still fishing the areas that I fished before but now I could tell how deep it was. That was the only difference. Thinking back how did that help? I didn’t change how or where I was fishing because we had to learn to fish those areas for years without knowing the depth.
This did change how we fished through the ice. Growing up we fished deep water drops that were found by lining this tree up to that power pole. We set our bobbers to three arm lengths. But now with this magic box we could see suspended fish that before we could not see. We found the fish were higher or lower in the water. That was a game changer and did put more fish on the ice.
Over the years I began fishing more lakes where the “depth finder” became a useful tool. Because of my having to previously use the knowledge of fishing first we never used this magic box in open water for finding fish but for finding structure on a lake we did not know. We still had to use that knowledge and rely on what we knew fish would bite on.
Technology has changed fishing in many degrees. I’m guilty of using many of them. But that knowledge of how to actually fish still needs to be used. Do I need to see every fish come up and hit my bait? No.
I’m on the fence with a forward facing unit. For me personally I believe that I would use it on the few times I hit Lake Superior and would not use it for my local lakes that I fish walleye or crappie on. So I can’t really justify it. For the local lakes I still rely on that school of hard knocks knowledge and learning to fish.
Do I believe they should not be used in tournaments? I do believe that. I feel that there are a lot of people who would like to fish tournaments but because they can hardly afford a simple boat they cannot afford the technology and therefore in a lot of ways it becomes a technology vs fishing tournament. But that is just my personal opinion.
Then where do you draw the line in “enough” technology? We now have mapping, sonar, trolling motors,,, Just go fish and have fun!!!
I watched the entire video. Great insight by Jason and I have to admit he softened my stance on FFS a bit.
But then I watched a show with these guys hammering trophy crappies open water mid-lake using livescope. Sorry in my opinion it crosses a line.
Would you go deer hunting with a thermal scope?
Would you go deer hunting with a thermal scope?
Is there a law that says you cant? If so, I am not aware of it. I dont have one, but as long as you shoot during legal hours I wouldnt see an issue.
My stance all along has been that it’s not about what’s out there being used right now…it’s about what’s coming in the near future.
The current/latests versions of FFS are just the tip of the iceberg with technology and its advancement impacting resources or anglers’ abilities to harvest fish.
With that said I don’t support an outright ban specifically, but there will come a point where using the latest greatest technology to harvest fish will be an issue. I like the idea of FFS and similar technology only being legal for catch/release fishing. I have no idea how that could be enforced, but that’s why we pay those legislators and the higher-ups at MNDNR the big tax bucks 
Is there a law that says you cant? If so, I am not aware of it. I dont have one, but as long as you shoot during legal hours I wouldnt see an issue.
It’s illegal in MN
97B.086 (a) A person may not posses night vision or thermal imaging equipment while taking wild animals
Even if it was legal the question is “would you?” Do you think it’s fair chase to scan the woods for a body of heat and hunt that way?
It’s illegal in MN
97B.086 (a) A person may not posses night vision or thermal imaging equipment while taking wild animals
Even if it was legal the question is “would you?” Do you think it’s fair chase to scan the woods for a body of heat and hunt that way?
Is it legal for shooting coyotes? I would think it is.
IDK what the real advantage would be during daylight. Now would I use it? Probably not.
I’m not aware of any state that allows the use of a thermal/night vision scope for deer hunting at night time.
I know you can hunt yotes and wild pigs at night using them in may states, but not deer.
Voting to ban something is no different than wanting to ban AR type rifles . It’s a tool until someone misuses it . What goes around comes around . If a ban ever is successful on FFS . I guarantee other proposals will be brought forward to ban SI , DI GPS mapping .They may or may not be successful but those with an axe to grind will push their self serving agenda .
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