Question for the lawmakers….

  • Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1755865

    Here’s a good read that should be the guidelines for all of this….

    The Second Amendment: The Framers’ Intentions

    by Daniel J. Schultz

    The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution states: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” The reference to a “well regulated” militia, probably conjures up a connotation at odds with the meaning intended by the Framers. In today’s English, the term “well regulated” probably implies heavy and intense government regulation. However, that conclusion is erroneous.

    The words “well regulated” had a far different meaning at the time the Second Amendment was drafted. In the context of the Constitution’s provisions for Congressional power over certain aspects of the militia, and in the context of the Framers’ definition of “militia,” government regulation was not the intended meaning. Rather, the term meant only what it says, that the necessary militia be well regulated, but not by the national government.

    To determine the meaning of the Constitution, one must start with the words of the Constitution itself. If the meaning is plain, that meaning controls. To ascertain the meaning of the term “well regulated” as it was used in the Second Amendment, it is necessary to begin with the purpose of the Second Amendment itself. The overriding purpose of the Framers in guaranteeing the right of the people to keep and bear arms was as a check on the standing army, which the Constitution gave the Congress the power to “raise and support.”

    As Noah Webster put it in a pamphlet urging ratification of the Constitution, “Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe.” George Mason remarked to his Virginia delegates regarding the colonies’ recent experience with Britain, in which the Monarch’s goal had been “to disarm the people; that [that] . . . was the best and most effectual way to enslave them.” A widely reprinted article by Tench Coxe, an ally and correspondent of James Madison, described the Second Amendment’s overriding goal as a check upon the national government’s standing army: As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.

    Thus, the well regulated militia necessary to the security of a free state was a militia that might someday fight against a standing army raised and supported by a tyrannical national government. Obviously, for that reason, the Framers did not say “A Militia well regulated by the Congress, being necessary to the security of a free State” — because a militia so regulated might not be separate enough from, or free enough from, the national government, in the sense of both physical and operational control, to preserve the “security of a free State.”

    It is also helpful to contemplate the overriding purpose and object of the Bill of Rights in general. To secure ratification of the Constitution, the Federalists, urging passage of the Constitution by the States had committed themselves to the addition of the Bill of Rights, to serve as “further guards for private rights.” In that regard, the first ten amendments to the Constitution were designed to be a series of “shall nots,” telling the new national government again, in no uncertain terms, where it could not tread.

    It would be incongruous to suppose or suggest the Bill of Rights, including the Second Amendment, which were proscriptions on the powers of the national government, simultaneously acted as a grant of power to the national government. Similarly, as to the term “well regulated,” it would make no sense to suggest this referred to a grant of “regulation” power to the government (national or state), when the entire purpose of the Bill of Rights was to both declare individual rights and tell the national government where the scope of its enumerated powers ended.

    In keeping with the intent and purpose of the Bill of Rights both of declaring individual rights and proscribing the powers of the national government, the use and meaning of the term “Militia” in the Second Amendment, which needs to be “well regulated,” helps explain what “well regulated” meant. When the Constitution was ratified, the Framers unanimously believed that the “militia” included all of the people capable of bearing arms.

    George Mason, one of the Virginians who refused to sign the Constitution because it lacked a Bill of Rights, said: “Who are the Militia? They consist now of the whole people.” Likewise, the Federal Farmer, one of the most important Anti-Federalist opponents of the Constitution, referred to a “militia, when properly formed, [as] in fact the people themselves.” The list goes on and on.

    By contrast, nowhere is to be found a contemporaneous definition of the militia, by any of the Framers, as anything other than the “whole body of the people.” Indeed, as one commentator said, the notion that the Framers intended the Second Amendment to protect the “collective” right of the states to maintain militias rather than the rights of individuals to keep and bear arms, “remains one of the most closely guarded secrets of the eighteenth century, for no known writing surviving from the period between 1787 and 1791 states such a thesis.”

    Furthermore, returning to the text of the Second Amendment itself, the right to keep and bear arms is expressly retained by “the people,” not the states. Recently the U.S. Supreme Court confirmed this view, finding that the right to keep and bear arms was an individual right held by the “people,” — a “term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution,” specifically the Preamble and the First, Second, Fourth, Ninth and Tenth Amendments. Thus, the term “well regulated” ought to be considered in the context of the noun it modifies, the people themselves, the militia(s).

    The above analysis leads us finally to the term “well regulated.” What did these two words mean at the time of ratification? Were they commonly used to refer to a governmental bureaucracy as we know it today, with countless rules and regulations and inspectors, or something quite different? We begin this analysis by examining how the term “regulate” was used elsewhere in the Constitution. In every other instance where the term “regulate” is used, or regulations are referred to, the Constitution specifies who is to do the regulating and what is being “regulated.” However, in the Second Amendment, the Framers chose only to use the term “well regulated” to describe a militia and chose not to define who or what would regulate it.

    It is also important to note that the Framers’ chose to use the indefinite article “a” to refer to the militia, rather than the definite article “the.” This choice suggests that the Framers were not referring to any particular well regulated militia but, instead, only to the concept that well regulated militias, made up of citizens bearing arms, were necessary to secure a free State. Thus, the Framers chose not to explicitly define who, or what, would regulate the militias, nor what such regulation would consist of, nor how the regulation was to be accomplished.

    This comparison of the Framers’ use of the term “well regulated” in the Second Amendment, and the words “regulate” and “regulation” elsewhere in the Constitution, clarifies the meaning of that term in reference to its object, namely, the Militia. There is no doubt the Framers understood that the term “militia” had multiple meanings. First, the Framers understood all of the people to be part of the unorganized militia. The unorganized militia members, “the people,” had the right to keep and bear arms. They could, individually, or in concert, “well regulate” themselves; that is, they could train to shoot accurately and to learn the basics of military tactics.

    This interpretation is in keeping with English usage of the time, which included within the meaning of the verb “regulate” the concept of self- regulation or self-control (as it does still to this day). The concept that the people retained the right to self-regulate their local militia groups (or regulate themselves as individual militia members) is entirely consistent with the Framers’ use of the indefinite article “a” in the phrase “A well regulated Militia.”

    This concept of the people’s self-regulation, that is, non-governmental regulation, is also in keeping with the limited grant of power to Congress “for calling forth” the militia for only certain, limited purposes, to “provide for” the militia only certain limited control and equipment, and the limited grant of power to the President regarding the militia, who only serves as Commander in Chief of that portion of the militia called into the actual service of the nation. The “well regula[tion]” of the militia set forth in the Second Amendment was apart from that control over the militia exercised by Congress and the President, which extended only to that part of the militia called into actual service of the Union. Thus, “well regula[tion]” referred to something else. Since the fundamental purpose of the militia was to serve as a check upon a standing army, it would seem the words “well regulated” referred to the necessity that the armed citizens making up the militia(s) have the level of equipment and training necessary to be an effective and formidable check upon the national government’s standing army.

    This view is confirmed by Alexander Hamilton’s observation, in The Federalist, No. 29, regarding the people’s militias ability to be a match for a standing army: ” . . . but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights . . . .”

    It is an absolute truism that law-abiding, armed citizens pose no threat to other law-abiding citizens. The Framers’ writings show they also believed this. As we have seen, the Framers understood that “well regulated” militias, that is, armed citizens, ready to form militias that would be well trained, self-regulated and disciplined, would pose no threat to their fellow citizens, but would, indeed, help to “insure domestic Tranquility” and “provide for the common defence.”

    Kyhl
    Savage
    Posts: 749
    #1755875

    Thanks Tom. The constitution was written brilliantly.

    Sadly, the people in charge today believe in a constitution as a living document. They will not “believe” in those words. They will rewrite the meaning of the words to suit their views of today. To them it doesn’t matter what the Framers intended.

    The constitution is not a living document. If you want the american experiment to continue, teach that to your kids.

    pool2fool
    Inactive
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 1709
    #1755881

    Is it any different than saying the nra is nuts?

    You tell me if you see a difference between these 2 sentences:

    “Bill is nuts!”

    “Bill is hoping for another school shooting so he can use it promote his anti-gun agenda.”

    Let me rephrase. I don’t think they wish anything to happen. But they use things that do happen to further a goal. . .

    Umm, welcome to America? You just described partisan politics in general. The left is using this to promote their ideology (vote for us if you care about protecting the children!), and at the same time the right is using it as a rallying cry as well (vote for us if you value your right to bear arms.)

    Trent W
    Chatfield, MN
    Posts: 186
    #1755907

    The question was asked “Who is mentioning taking away guns?” Well, the current bill (HF 3022) in the MN House does. You probably won’t hear all the details mentioned on your local nightly news and likely not in your favorite newspaper and definitely not by the authors of this bill who are out there proclaiming that this is simply about background checks and the mentally ill.

    The best place to get the facts about what is proposed here in MN is to actually read the bill. https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bills/text.php?number=HF3022&version=latest&session=ls90&session_year=2018&session_number=0

    I recommend reading the whole thing, but if you jump to sections 8 and 30, you will see gun bans are clearly present in this bill.

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1755911

    Here’s another tid bit that’s more fact than fiction and goes right along with this. We cannot say that this last incident was a failure of the arms-in-schools ideology simply because the person armed went the other way.

    I’m not a member of the NRA so those assuming I am can stuff it. I belong to an NRA sanctioned gun club but then most legal gun clubs and shooting ranges are. I am a firm believer in our second amendment and will defend it as much as I can. I hunt with my guns and I also shoot targets with them. Occasionally I will take one or two along to the cabin and punch paper while there. I have zero guns loaded at home and I don’t take my guns out of the house unless I am going to the club or hunting or the rare time or two I take any to the cabin as mentioned. I do not have the cc permit however I may apply and attend the classes because I own a black powder pistol the I hunt with and carry it holstered outside of my hunting coat and there are times I’d be more comfortable with it under my hunting coat which is illegal for me now without the permit. Should I get the permit it will sit inside the gun’s hard case with the gun and not come out until the gun goes to the woods as I will not opt to carry in public. Sorry, but I do not feel unsafe in this country and if I am in an area where I start feeling otherwise I get out of the area. And if I carried in those areas I’d likely be out-gunned by those who aren’t legally supposed to have guns in the first place.

    My personal feeling are that at some point a clear distinction is going to have to be made between how target and LEGITIMATE hunting arms and these ARs and platform weapons are possessed. Not taken away, possessed. This may mean having special licensure or maybe mean that clip size [a clip by the way is an accessory, not a necessity for the firearm to function] is reeled back and it may mean that a waiting period is invoked along with a 21 year old purchasing age requirement. The point is if people feel they need to have one of these “black” they may have to decide if the minor inconveniences which are likely coming your way are worth the hassle of owning such a gun. I see people with these guns and big clips on the range and think they look about as stupid as someone holding a pistol nearly upside down without aiming and shooting at a target….and yes I’ve seen this too.

    I hate these mass shootings because for one thing they attack my rights…. our rights as legal Americans. I feel miserable for the families that are affected, even some the families of the shooter’s families where many of them haven’t had a clue that the shooter was a ding bat. I despise the way the media runs rampant with their preying on victims and survivor’s families. As so many here have commented, arming a school has two sides. Arming the Las Vegas incident had two sides. The list goes on, but one commonality that seems to stick out is the use of Ar’s, platform weapons, black guns AND LARGE VOLUME CLIPS. While many of ya’ll think I am just some old rambling fool [the joke is on you!] it’s my prediction that we’re going to see some serious changes to ownership of those suckers. I say ownership/purchasing requirements are going to be wayyyy different and more stringent and I think the big clips are going to be out the window. The legacy of hunting has always fallen on the clean kill and the wait, not ripping off twenty rounds at a damned dog running across a field and prairie dogs only need one shot as seen on the many videos seen here on site. A nice bolt action has more place in the field than those black guns and that too may come. Thankfully if it does.

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    basseyes
    Posts: 2443
    #1755914

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>basseyes wrote:</div>
    Is it any different than saying the nra is nuts?

    You tell me if you see a difference between these 2 sentences:

    “Bill is nuts!”

    “Bill is hoping for another school shooting so he can use it promote his anti-gun agenda.”

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>basseyes wrote:</div>
    Let me rephrase. I don’t think they wish anything to happen. But they use things that do happen to further a goal. . .

    Umm, welcome to America? You just described partisan politics in general. The left is using this to promote their ideology (vote for us if you care about protecting the children!), and at the same time the right is using it as a rallying cry as well (vote for us if you value your right to bear arms.)

    Agreed. I apologize for that statement, it was stupid.

    pool2fool
    Inactive
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 1709
    #1755917

    Agreed. I apologize for that statement, it was stupid.

    I’ve made my fair share of those as well. wave

    glenn57
    cold spring mn
    Posts: 10616
    #1755938

    i only have 1 comment left. chicago supposedly has the toughest gun laws in the country……………so how well is that working!!!!!!!!

    tegg
    Hudson, Wi/Aitkin Co
    Posts: 1450
    #1755940

    How about an even more fundamental question:
    Can you pass a budget?

    Dan
    Southeast MN
    Posts: 3532
    #1755955

    A lot of wisdom in your post Tom. And you must be a braver man than I am…you’re from the Rochester area like me and state that you don’t have a carry permit and don’t feel unsafe in this country. This Rochester area is exactly why I got my permit haha!

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1755963

    A lot of wisdom in your post Tom. And you must be a braver man than I am…you’re from the Rochester area like me and state that you don’t have a carry permit and don’t feel unsafe in this country. This Rochester area is exactly why I got my permit haha!

    Here’s what I said….”Sorry, but I do not feel unsafe in this country and if I am in an area where I start feeling otherwise I get out of the area”. Not necessarily brave, just smart. Re-read my post and pay particular attention to the part about shooting a handgun up-side down. See this a lot in the movies and apparently in Rochester too as the dumb schnits doing all the shooting can’t hit schnit including whatever or whoever they are shooting at.

    Something else that many CC holders might want to think about too is whether a random drug/alcohol testing provision be attached to a permit especially if a cc permit is attached to ownership or purchase ability for a black gun. There are hundreds of instances where random drug/alcohol testing is a requirement for work, and not at all related to criminal activity.

    buckybadger
    Upper Midwest
    Posts: 7435
    #1755971

    Luckily I ran home for lunch today. The government was there raiding my house and taking all of my firearms.

    I heard they were headed for the yuppie neighborhoods surrounding the Twin Cities metro area next. A large percentage of you better take arms and establish posts to stop the weapons grab set to take place there in the near future.

    Randy Wieland
    Lebanon. WI
    Posts: 13299
    #1755974

    I’ve been a member of the NRA only because it is a prerequisite for most of the shooting organizations I belong to. Like many of you had posted prior, I had the same incorrect perception of the NRA.

    Since my involvement within a couple sportsmen clubs has increased and my involvement with “In-Industry” as a rep with many Spring/Fall Goods companies; I have learned so much more about what the NRA does that the media doesn’t tell you. Its sad, really sad that many don’t know the truth. Yes, the NRA fights very hard to not give up 1 single aspect of owning firearms. Realisticly, as a representing body to its members, that is their JOB. Is there area for a little bending and give-take – most likely. But, like so many other things, once more restr5ictyions and regulations are in place, it becomes so much easier for additional regulations to be added later.

    More importantly, please understand more about what the NRA does on a local level.
    * Money is contributed to associated clubs for Scholarships
    * Money is given to associated clubs to aid in purchasing supplies for general firearm safety classes.
    * Printed material and training information is provided for Conceal Carry classes
    * Additional funds have been donated to clubs to assist in helping battered women
    * Supplies donated to assist in Highschool Trap leagues
    * Assist in resources for hunter safety programs
    * Targets are donated to clubs that offer events to the general public
    * NRA has teamed up at times with various other groups for improving wildlife habitat and gaining public hunting/shooting grounds.
    * Provides additional legal resources for its members
    * Grant money for improvements in associated club’s ranges.
    * Contributes to Historical preservation of various museum pieces

    And this is just a very quick random listing of things that I have been involved with first hand. They do so much more than what is recognized. As for the propaganda and all the politics – well, as we know, anyone that watches about any news channel and believes the majority of what they heard is drunk from the kool aid. 99% of what we see is either taken out of context, or mis-stated. The media’s need to over-dramatize things to get your attention to watch is disgusting. Yes, Wayne speaks like a number of the politicians and keeps a very hard extreme stance that our rights won’t be infringed upon. Generally in response to what some law maker wants to take away from us.

    I get the daily emails from the NRA for things going on around the country. I just shake my head in disbelief at what I read in a NRA press release and what the media presents to the general public.
    Here is a typical release


    On February 21st, the Wisconsin state Senate passed Assembly Bill 820 by a 21-11 vote. AB 820 is an important piece of legislation to ensure that shooting ranges receive due process if being closed for unsafe conditions and are given a chance to remedy the issues. Having previously passed the state Assembly by a voice vote on February 15th, AB 820 will now head to Governor Scott Walker’s desk for his approval. Please contact Gov. Walker and urge him to sign AB 820. Click the “Take Action” button below to contact Gov. Walker.

    Introduced by Representative Rob Stafsholt (R-29) and cosponsored by Senator Thomas Tiffany (R-12), AB 820 will establish set procedures for portions of shooting ranges to be closed for unsafe conditions and would give the affected range the opportunity to remedy the issue in order to reopen. This will prevent bureaucrats from shutting down entire shooting facilities for safety issues in a single area or arbitrarily preventing them from reopening when they are in full compliance of the law.

    Shooting ranges are an important part of the sporting heritage and Second Amendment rights of Wisconsinites. Countless law-abiding citizens utilize shooting ranges to practice marksmanship skills, to ensure that their self-defense and sporting arms are in order, for recreation, and to teach the responsible use of and respect for firearms to others. This legislation helps to ensure that safe shooting ranges remain available for the pursuit of these goals.

    Your NRA would like to thank all the legislators who worked hard to pass this piece of important legislation. Again, please click the “Take Action” button above to contact Gov. Walker and urge him to sign AB 820 into law.”

    In the local news, it was projected that the NRA wanted unsafe ranges to be able to continue….

    And if you really want to see who feeds the beast for what is being purchased in firearm sales, you would need to attend SHOT SHOW. Its nearly indescribable of how large the show is. Spend a week in a booth talking to various buyers of every store size and you’ll quickly find that the NRA does very little to influence sales trends. As one of my buyers stated to me this week “Ya, I’ve been seeing that pop up a lot of Facebook, I better stock a few and see how they sell”. That, is were most store buyers are getting influenced.

    philtickelson
    Inactive
    Mahtomedi, MN
    Posts: 1678
    #1755977

    Here’s a good read that should be the guidelines for all of this….

    The Second Amendment: The Framers’ Intentions

    by Daniel J. Schultz

    I think there are some good points in here, but I always have the same question whenever this type of argument is brought up. Does it still apply? I’m not trying to be a jerk, but seriously, is the US/the world in any way similar enough to what it was back then?

    I’m not a military strategist or anything now, but if a tryannical leader showed up and tried to use the US military to gain a strangle hold on the US populace, or some other far-fetched plot that seems nearly impossible given the current government system, is that even remotely stoppable from a civilian perspective?

    Couldn’t they just drop cruise missiles on your house/town/city/state from the safety of a bunker somewhere and render your massive gun collection completely inadequate?

    At the time the constitution was written, numbers and mobs and militias were generally an effective means of resistance, is that even remotely true nowadays? What if you and everyone you know that had guns rose up to fight the man, wouldn’t they just send a gunship your direction or something? The gap in firepower/technology from civilians to the military in 2018 is probably like comparing an elementary school science fair to NASA.

    So I think I agree in the analysis of how and why the amendment was written the way it was, I’m just not sure if 200+ years later it is really applicable?

    philtickelson
    Inactive
    Mahtomedi, MN
    Posts: 1678
    #1755981

    i only have 1 comment left. chicago supposedly has the toughest gun laws in the country……………so how well is that working!!!!!!!!

    Mass shootings/school shootings are what’s driving the conversation right now, I don’tthink anyone is claiming that these laws would stop gang violence/drug related violence?

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1755997

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>glenn57 wrote:</div>
    i only have 1 comment left. chicago supposedly has the toughest gun laws in the country……………so how well is that working!!!!!!!!

    Mass shootings/school shootings are what’s driving the conversation right now, I don’tthink anyone is claiming that these laws would stop gang violence/drug related violence?

    Maybe teach those idiots how to hit what they are supposedly aiming at and we’d see some diminishing returns on all the gun fire there. Once you’re down to one of the illegal shooter, use his gun and shoot him with it. End of problem for a while.

    Trent W
    Chatfield, MN
    Posts: 186
    #1756011

    Something else that many CC holders might want to think about too is whether a random drug/alcohol testing provision be attached to a permit especially if a cc permit is attached to ownership or purchase ability for a black gun. There are hundreds of instances where random drug/alcohol testing is a requirement for work, and not at all related to criminal activity.

    You lost me on that one there Tom. Where are you getting your information that carry permit holders are creating a problem due to alcohol and drug use? All permit holders that I know are very responsible individuals and adhere to the laws already on the books (ie. not carrying while under the influence of drugs and alcohol). Carry permit holders in MN already have to submit to and pay for training, get background checks and pay a fee every 5 years so that we can exercise our right to carry. Do you have to go to training, get a background check, pay a fee and pee in a cup in order to exercise your right to vote?

    Mudshark
    LaCrosse WI
    Posts: 2973
    #1756027

    I think there are some good points in here, but I always have the same question whenever this type of argument is brought up. Does it still apply? I’m not trying to be a jerk, but seriously, is the US/the world in any way similar enough to what it was back then?

    I don’t want delve into the whole gun thing but I do want to comment on the Constitution…….
    Phil…..I belive the things it addresses are not time related……
    Personal basic rights are timeless……they are the same no matter what….
    And yes….IMO the world is always the same in some ways….evil,murder and mayhem has always been there,millions of people were killed by Kahn,Timur the lame,Attila and on and on…..How is that any different than now?
    Humans are like that sometimes……

    Stanley
    Posts: 898
    #1756043

    Maybe everyone that thinks taking away all guns from responsible gun owners should look back a little ways in history and see just how that worked out for Germany.

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    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1756050

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Tom Sawvell wrote:</div>
    Something else that many CC holders might want to think about too is whether a random drug/alcohol testing provision be attached to a permit especially if a cc permit is attached to ownership or purchase ability for a black gun. There are hundreds of instances where random drug/alcohol testing is a requirement for work, and not at all related to criminal activity.

    You lost me on that one there Tom. Where are you getting your information that carry permit holders are creating a problem due to alcohol and drug use? All permit holders that I know are very responsible individuals and adhere to the laws already on the books (ie. not carrying while under the influence of drugs and alcohol). Carry permit holders in MN already have to submit to and pay for training, get background checks and pay a fee every 5 years so that we can exercise our right to carry. Do you have to go to training, get a background check, pay a fee and pee in a cup in order to exercise your right to vote?

    This idea was read on another site Trent and isn’t necessarily being asked for anywhere that I am aware of but it has been mentioned. With the climate today on this gun controversy nothing surprises me anymore. I personally know of no-one that abuses the permit but only a couple years ago there was a drunk at Silver Lake’s fireworks who tried a citizens arrest on someone who erroneously took a wrong turn and held the person at gun point. This person had a permit to carry so evidently there are those who will abuse rules to carry. This incident was all over the news at the time.

    There are a lot of angry people out there who are drumming up ideas for control at about the same rate as there are people looking to hold onto their rights to have weapons. Right now I take nothing for granted.

    buckybadger
    Upper Midwest
    Posts: 7435
    #1756053

    Maybe everyone that thinks taking away all guns from responsible gun owners should look back a little ways in history and see just how that worked out for Germany.

    Everyone = YOU?

    I haven’t seen anything factual in my years on this planet where the U.S. government had intentions of “taking away all guns from responsible gun owners”. Only Fox News and the NRA tout that type of propaganda to make headlines. Be a true conservative and tune out their crap.

    This is the equivalent of me saying the local government is out to steal everyone’s right (for law abiding, trained citizens) to drive a car because they lowered the speed limit in my residential neighborhood.

    Stanley
    Posts: 898
    #1756065

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Stanley wrote:</div>
    Maybe everyone that thinks taking away all guns from responsible gun owners should look back a little ways in history and see just how that worked out for Germany.

    Everyone = YOU?

    I haven’t seen anything factual in my years on this planet where the U.S. government had intentions of “taking away all guns from responsible gun owners”. Only Fox News and the NRA tout that type of propaganda to make headlines. Be a true conservative and tune out their crap.

    This is the equivalent of me saying the local government is out to steal everyone’s right (for law abiding, trained citizens) to drive a car because they lowered the speed limit in my residential neighborhood.

    [/quote/]

    Maybe I was wrong saying “all” guns but have you looked at the latest legislation trying to be passed right here in Minnesota? Maybe you should re-read it. If it would all pass it does not leave many guns left that would be considered legal and who’s to say if they get that they will be happy and not come after the rest later?

    philtickelson
    Inactive
    Mahtomedi, MN
    Posts: 1678
    #1756069

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>philtickelson wrote:</div>
    I think there are some good points in here, but I always have the same question whenever this type of argument is brought up. Does it still apply? I’m not trying to be a jerk, but seriously, is the US/the world in any way similar enough to what it was back then?

    I don’t want delve into the whole gun thing but I do want to comment on the Constitution…….
    Phil…..I belive the things it addresses are not time related……
    Personal basic rights are timeless……they are the same no matter what….
    And yes….IMO the world is always the same in some ways….evil,murder and mayhem has always been there,millions of people were killed by Kahn,Timur the lame,Attila and on and on…..How is that any different than now?
    Humans are like that sometimes……

    How is the world different now than in Genghis Khan’s time? I guess in like almost every way imaginable.

    Time is extremely relevant to how the Constitution was written, a new country born out of a long/brutal fight for freedom from an oppressive world power. I would say the fear of the ‘new’ government turning right back into their former one was very real.

    I’m just saying that if people want to lean on the ‘to stand up to an oppressive military/government’ argument as a reason to have guns, I hope they at least know that they could never stand up to the power of our military, not even for like half a minute. The same people that get butterflies in their stomach when it comes time to fondle their firearm are in a lot of cases the same people voting for increased military spending(lol, sorry this is really over the top but ‘fondle their firearm’ had such a nice alliteration and drummed up silly pictures in my head. I know it’s an exaggeration).

    I’ve always just thought it was a weird argument, like “I have a right to guns so I can stand up to the military that I drool over and unwavingly support and fund excessively through my votes. The same one that I will have absolutely no chance resisting given they have weapons that are unavailable to civilians, prohibitively expensive to obtain even if they were, and are 1 billion times more effective than any amount shotguns/pistols/rifles that I can afford on my blue collar budget”

    So in that sense, absolutely the world is different now and while the reasoning at the time made 100% sense, I just feel that today it’s not super applicable.

    I’m not saying that’s a reason to ban or regulate guns more by any means, or change the constitution or anything crazy like that, I just don’t think it’s a strong argument against new gun regulations.

    crappie55369
    Mound, MN
    Posts: 5757
    #1756070

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>philtickelson wrote:</div>
    I think there are some good points in here, but I always have the same question whenever this type of argument is brought up. Does it still apply? I’m not trying to be a jerk, but seriously, is the US/the world in any way similar enough to what it was back then?

    I don’t want delve into the whole gun thing but I do want to comment on the Constitution…….
    Phil…..I belive the things it addresses are not time related……
    Personal basic rights are timeless……they are the same no matter what….
    And yes….IMO the world is always the same in some ways….evil,murder and mayhem has always been there,millions of people were killed by Kahn,Timur the lame,Attila and on and on…..How is that any different than now?
    Humans are like that sometimes……

    I think you missed the point. The point Phil was making is the 2nd amendment is being touted as a right to bear arms in defense of a tyrannical government. What Phil was asking is is this still relevant in a world where our government can nuke an uprising with a nuclear bomb with the push of a button? I think its a valid question. How will some AR’s help civilians in that scenario? I agree a persons rights are supposed to be timeless but times change and what owning a gun did for a civilian in 1776 was different than what it does for them now.

    To be clear, by saying this im not suggesting that we ban guns or that we change the 2nd amendment. Please understand that. Also not taking sides here just pointing out that Phils point with his post seems to have been lost here.

    Stanley
    Posts: 898
    #1756075

    If the constitution is no longer relevant by today’s standards or views on the world or society then should we consider looking at changing all the amendments? Maybe the 1st amendment is out of date as well since people no longer go to jail or are arrested by criticizing the government or religious views. With so many people on all sides getting their feeling hurt or offended by what others say we should look at common sense free speech laws to keep that from happening so we can all “feel” good at the end of the day that nobody said something mean or offended us.

    TripleA
    Blaine
    Posts: 655
    #1756077

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Stanley wrote:</div>
    Maybe everyone that thinks taking away all guns from responsible gun owners should look back a little ways in history and see just how that worked out for Germany.

    Everyone = YOU?

    I haven’t seen anything factual in my years on this planet where the U.S. government had intentions of “taking away all guns from responsible gun owners”. Only Fox News and the NRA tout that type of propaganda to make headlines. Be a true conservative and tune out their crap.

    This is the equivalent of me saying the local government is out to steal everyone’s right (for law abiding, trained citizens) to drive a car because they lowered the speed limit in my residential neighborhood.

    Slowly chip away at it and eventually they get there. A full gun ban would never pass…… That’s why you have never seen it proposed.

    Look at any bill they go through, stacked with riders.

    crappie55369
    Mound, MN
    Posts: 5757
    #1756078

    If the constitution is no longer relevant by today’s standards or views on the world or society then should we consider looking at changing all the amendments? Maybe the 1st amendment is out of date as well since people no longer go to jail or are arrested by criticizing the government or religious views. With so many people on all sides getting their feeling hurt or offended by what others say we should look at common sense free speech laws to keep that from happening so we can all “feel” good at the end of the day that nobody said something mean or offended us.

    No one said the Constitution isn’t relevant or is out of date. To try and say it was is a grossly misleading statement. What was suggested is that the argument of citizens needing to own guns to protect themselves against a tyrannical government is now obsolete with the Advent of today’s modern weapons and Technology. And in fact it was said in the form of a question not a statement. Questions are for discussion.

    pool2fool
    Inactive
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 1709
    #1756095

    I’ve always just thought it was a weird argument, like “I have a right to guns so I can stand up to the military that I drool over and unwavingly support and fund excessively through my votes. The same one that I will have absolutely no chance resisting given they have weapons that are unavailable to civilians, prohibitively expensive to obtain even if they were, and are 1 billion times more effective than any amount shotguns/pistols/rifles that I can afford on my blue collar budget”

    I tried to make this point in the other 13 page thread. Pretty sure I failed miserably. Some guys seemed pretty sure they could stand up to a tyrannical military force.

    Stanley
    Posts: 898
    #1756099

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Stanley wrote:</div>
    If the constitution is no longer relevant by today’s standards or views on the world or society then should we consider looking at changing all the amendments? Maybe the 1st amendment is out of date as well since people no longer go to jail or are arrested by criticizing the government or religious views. With so many people on all sides getting their feeling hurt or offended by what others say we should look at common sense free speech laws to keep that from happening so we can all “feel” good at the end of the day that nobody said something mean or offended us.

    No one said the Constitution isn’t relevant or is out of date. To try and say it was is a grossly misleading statement. What was suggested is that the argument of citizens needing to own guns to protect themselves against a tyrannical government is now obsolete with the Advent of today’s modern weapons and Technology. And in fact it was said in the form of a question not a statement. Questions are for discussion.

    My first sentence was a question not a statement hence the question mark at the end if it.

    crappie55369
    Mound, MN
    Posts: 5757
    #1756117

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>crappie55369 wrote:</div>

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Stanley wrote:</div>
    If the constitution is no longer relevant by today’s standards or views on the world or society then should we consider looking at changing all the amendments? Maybe the 1st amendment is out of date as well since people no longer go to jail or are arrested by criticizing the government or religious views. With so many people on all sides getting their feeling hurt or offended by what others say we should look at common sense free speech laws to keep that from happening so we can all “feel” good at the end of the day that nobody said something mean or offended us.

    No one said the Constitution isn’t relevant or is out of date. To try and say it was is a grossly misleading statement. What was suggested is that the argument of citizens needing to own guns to protect themselves against a tyrannical government is now obsolete with the Advent of today’s modern weapons and Technology. And in fact it was said in the form of a question not a statement. Questions are for discussion.

    My first sentence was a question not a statement hence the question mark at the end if it.

    In that case I reject the premise of your question

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