How hot before river walleye shutdown?

At what river temp do you find that the walleyes start to slow down, or at least get real picky? I have yet to have good luck at anything over 82 degrees. I am not sure if my poor luck is due to the walleyes actually shutting down, OR if it just a breakdown in the pattern, (either a location shift or a need to go to finese tactics). We are sitting at about 81 degrees in pool 14 today, with 90 degree days in the forecast. With the flow finally down to summer levels, I hate to think about the water getting too hot already. If anyone has any tips for fishing water over 82, I’d like to hear them.

Thanks

RandyK

I’m don’t have much info to offer but my experience in the dead of summer with almost all fish species is finding cooler water or waiting until after dark. Sometimes both. Now, most of my fishing experience up to this year has been with lakes with lake tribs, and limited river exposure. This year has been intense, crash course river learning but from the publications and reference sources I possess, there is multiple mentions of cooler water being the key to a good mid-summer bite on either system. I can’t offer much more than this but hopefully it’s enough to get you started in the right direction.

Randy

I’ve not noticed a water temp that automatically results in a poor walleye bite. More likely you’re looking at a need to change your presentation of patterns to get back on fish. Also, at this time of year, the quantity of food in the river is much greater than earlier in the season so the fish have many more options to choose from that might keep them from taking our bait. On the flip side, high water temps mean a high metabolism rate. Those fish are eating more and more often now than at any time of the year. Look for fish to be holding in areas with more current nearby than in months prior and don’t be afraid to fish REALLY shallow. That’s where all my fish are coming from right now and our water temps are in excess of 80 degrees as well.

James Holst

Moving Waters Guide Service

http://www.movingwaters.net

I guess I would just like to share my opinions on the subject of fish moving to colder water when it it’s warm or the fish moving to warmer water when it is cold. In all reality a fish is cold blooded it does not have the capability to distinguish temperature! The reason so many people think in this manner is because in the winter when some one is fishing a warm water discharge they say the fish are moving in to the warmer water to feed this is not so! The reason the fish are more active in that area is due to the higher water temps the fish here have higher metabolism than the fish holding a mile down river. The same thing happens in the summer months people think that the fish move to colder water this is not the case a guy would be led to beleive that in the summer when the water temps are in the 80″s the fish would be going balistic but this is not so when the water temps reach a certain degree it depletes the oxygen levels and the fish move to the faster moving water where it just happens to be a little cooler water temp.But with the faster moving water there becomes an ample supply of oxygen. All in all in my opinon the fish are controlled by the water conditions surounding them they can not say hey the water is a few degrees warmer upstream lets go and hang out there and warm up for a while. Comment’s please!

See ya on the water!

Dustin

Edited by Dustin on 07/12/01 10:38 PM.

Hey Dustin

The Pool 4 telemetry study available here in the Article Library linked from the home page found NO tendency of fish to migrate to areas with warmer available water when faced with cold water temps. I’d assume we could assume the same is likely true in the opposite context. I’ve caught tons of fish, very aggressive and actively feeding fish, from 2′ of water in the backwaters of pool 4 when the water temps were well into the 80’s. The running joke is that these fish are “half cooked”….LOL… yet they don’t seem to be stressed at all. In every instance when I’ve caught really aggessive fish in super high water temps the fish have been shallow and in fairly heavy current. The current of course helps keep the oxygen levels high as Dustin pointed out. With food presence in abundance these fish have everything they needed.

Everyone likely gets sick of hearing me say this but if you’re not catching fish…. move or change the program because the fish are ALWAYS, without exception, tearing it up somewhere. Finding those fish is half the fun!

James Holst

Moving Waters Guide Service

http://www.movingwaters.net

James your right I am getting sick of hearing you say that haa….haa…..HA! All kiding aside it’s like James said the fish are always biting some where and being the guy who can consistatnly find them makes it a lot more fun if you go out and do the same old thing day in and day out you will likely have the same results no FISH!

Listen to this man he knows what he is talking about, some times it is nice to have a slow day on the water thoose are the days a guy can learn the most!

James the 80 degree temp was just a reference I know all species have a desired level of disolved oxygen and current. I to have caught shallow water eye’s in this high of water temp but like you said there is some faster moving water near by.

See ya on the water!

Dustin

Edited by Dustin on 07/12/01 10:46 PM.

Hmmmmm……………..I’m certainly not going to challenge anything that was just said but it certainly arouses some questions. Turk’s latest reports state that the Croix ‘eyes are starting to get into normal summer patterns, which includes finding them at lower depths. Now, because the Croix is clearer, maybe there’s the idea of light penetration but there was just as much light a month ago as there is now. So why do they go deeper? In the ‘eye books, the info provided for a summer lake bite is to be aware of the thermocline. They’re not saying that fish migrate to cooler waters, but they get into the thermocline because of a “preferred water temp”. What is the basis of this info if fish aren’t capable of making that determination?

Like I said, I’m not challenging anything that was just said, but I’m obviously in need of some clarification.

Stillakid

I’ve never heard of a themocline being present in a river system…. actually I’m pretty sure that it couldn’t happen due to the current and the mixing of the water.

I’m not going to put words into Dustin’s mouth but I’m pretty sure we’re both trying to send across the same message…. warmer water temps don’t mean the fish stop biting or that they move to find cooler temps. Not automatically anyway.

Walleye will go where the food goes. If that happens to be into deeper water and subsequently cooler temps, they’ll go and be that much happier about being there I guess. Give them 65 degree water temps, good cover, and a poor or absent food source and you’d be unlikely to find few if any fish. Its all about a hierarchy of needs…. walleye need food more than they need cool temps so they relate to a good food source. If the food is in 3′ of 85 degree water, that’s where the fish will be. If the baitfish or whatever the fish are keying on move to deeper water….. so go the walleye. I’ve caught enough fish in the river out of 85 degree water at depths that wouldn’t cover a man’s knees if he hoped out of the boat to at least be lead to the conclusion that walleye will tolerate warm temps with apparent ease if they can look forward to a full belly.

Lakes are different in some ways, but again, track the movements of the primary food source and you’ll find game fish.

James Holst

Moving Waters Guide Service

http://www.movingwaters.net

this is an interesting discussion… and it relates to something near and dear to me… finding Eyes…. I would like to put in my 2 cents worth…. just because an animal may be cold blooded (exothermic) does NOT mean that they CANT detect temperature changes, nor that they dont have an inclination to find and maintain a certain body temperature…. Walleyes and Northerns for instance are known as cool water species…. and trout are cold water…. so they have long been associated with a general band of water temps….. this is one reason that you dont find walleye and northern in Florida for instance… they evovled in a more temperate zone and have adapted to cool water… they can indeed live in warmer water at least for short periods of time…. I would have to research a bit to find any papers on this… James IS correct in stating that the recent telemetry study in pool 4 was linked to studying walleye and sauger response to warm water influences of a nuclear power plant…. and that the conclusion was they did not……. just as every species has a band of temps they would “prefer” the also have a limit to what they can stand before they are stressed…. I DONT know where that would come for walleye… but I bet it would be pretty warm… most exotherms can function pretty well right up to the body temps that we homeotherms operate at.. the upper 90’s…. and like us, put them much over 100 and they are DEAD…..

still I believe James is quite correct in quoting a hierachy of priorities….. based on instinct the fish will repsond to certain priorities…. most of the time temp will NOT be the PRIME factor for location… UNTIL the fish is STRESSED by temps… this will then cause a fish to SEEK a level that it can tolerate and fish will indeed MOVE to accomplish this…..

I think there may be more reasons than simply temp that causes Eyes to be hard to find/catch in the summer….. but I feel that temp in some cases may be part of the answer…. Im sure in cases where the Eyes prey species is temp sensitive its possible THEY may migrate thus tempting the Eyes to follow…… in the River however the prime prey species is most likely shad… they LOVE warm water….. so that would not be the case…..

also its correct to assue no thermocline will form in a river… the presence of current keeps the water mixed enough that it dont happen…. however it is possible that the temp may still be some cooler in the depths….. though I have never measured this, would be interesting to see, Im sure some studies have been published on this as well…..

I really have to start finding and reading some of these!

Rivereyes:

As long as you are looking I’d be interested if shaded areas on the river are measureablely cooler, ie sun behind the bluffs etc. does that have any effect on Eyes or shad either one, or on sunny days are the shaded areas more productive, less productive, or no difference and if the areas shaded by the bluffs are more productive is it because of the shade or the onset of nightfall? We appreicate you doing the research and letting us all know.

I can look into that… but my first guess is going to be that shade is a visual factor with Eyes…. they tend to prefer a twilight/low light condition… Ive heard this is because their eyes are then superior to their preys so gives them an advantage…. also since fish have no eyelids (and NO sunglasses!)…. they will seek a certain amount of protection from the sun (if there is any to be had!)….. this is one reason why you will find them under docks, logs, weeds, even boats….

I didn’t meant to imply that there’s thermocline in rivers. What I used the “cline was to demonstrate temp preference. If ‘eyes do it in a lake, why wouldn’t they look for a preference ina river. Again, no challenge to the information given, it’s great stuff, but it seemed contradictory to me.

Well…. to address the contradiction you’re referring to…. if the key to catching walleye out of the Mississippi River is to locate significantly cooler water, I guess that’s something I’ve over looked. I’ve focused on northerns using springs and the cooler water in those locations (the suckers are there in huge quantities as well!) and done very well. However, I’m willing to go out on a limb and suggest that to “fish deep, cold water” as an automatic response to warmer temps in summer is one that will severly hamper anyones success as a river angler.

James Holst

Moving Waters Guide Service

http://www.movingwaters.net

With every rule there are exceptions? I’ll agree with that! I can’t argue with factual successes or be ignorant enough to exclude anything as a possibility. River systems are different and can be confusing and THAT’S why we’re ALL glad we have this web site and discussion forum to get help! Thanks again for your input guys…………….it says alot when you step in to make sure we’re not “headed for disappointment”.

This has been a very educational post for me thanks to everyone who participated and to thoose yet to post…I LOVE this board!!!!!!!!

See ya on the river!

Dustin

Im pretty sure that temp is NOT the key to locating and catching walleyes on pool 4, or ANY pool in the Miss….. but it would sure be kewl to know just WHAT is…. Im sure James first post on the subject and Dustins also are on target and that temps are most likely NO factor…..

all I know is that for ME on the Croix for instance until I started to fish MUCH deeper than usual I had poor success in July and August…… and I remember old river rats on the Miss (down in the pool 9-10 area) telling me that the fish would drop into the channel and be deep and hard to catch in that same time period…. but I wonder (now) if that was more response to LOW water and current than to temps…..

I know I was talking to Tuck about pool 3 the other day and he was saying that at a certain point late in the summer the fish sometimes end up in the deep holes and are tough to get…..

so on pool 4 do they stay shallow all summer? (or at least a viable subset of them?)….

I also know from personal experience that when things get tough fishing during the day that night fishing in shallow water seems to really turn on…. the fish seem to hide in shallow cover during the day and go on the prowl at night…. and maybe it has SOMETHING to do with temps… but I doubt if the water cools significantly at night…. but they will be really SHALLOW…… less than 3 feet sometimes even less than a foot…. and they are on a big time feed…… tossing floating raps was always my ticket……

anyway… Thanks to James and Dustin for their insight into where to find these summer fish…..

I believe that there is a thermocline in the St. Croix. The deep water holes, and there are MANY clearly have a density change in the water as evidenced by the graph I use. The fish will absolutely STOP once they hit this area. I believe the O2 levels change, plus there is an absense of baitfish in these areas as well. James, as I shared with you privately, I am catching fish in less than 2 feet of water on the Croix right now. If they were any shallower, they would have to grow legs and walk on the rocks! I don’t see this in the Sippi. Yet, the Sippi too is holding many fish in the 2-5 foot areas with water temps in the 80’s.

Tuck

whoa… guess I did NOT try MUCH shallower on the Croix… are they in and active in less than 2 feet of water during the day? maybe they figure its the only safe place to be with all the boat traffic (LOL)? or the bait must be holding tight along the edges……?

For the Croix to have a mid-day ‘eye bite in that shallow of water, it would have to be food. There’s a pretty good light penetration on that river. And to tell you the truth, my experience with boat traffic is that it brings the fish off the shoreline. Once those wakes start pounding like high wind breakers, I’ve only managed to find the fish a few feet deeper. Not a lot deeper, but deeper. Must not like the feeling of water being sucked off of them only to get pummeled by a big bucket’s worth!

On the St. Croix between Osceola and Stillwater we’re catching shallow Walleyes. Wednesday afternoon my daughter caught two 15 inchers with a Rattlin Fat Rap in 1-2 feet of water. They were along the Wisconsin shoreline(in the sun) with no visible cover nearby. Also , last friday , a local sharpie picked up a 6 lb Walleye while fishing Smallmouth using a white spinner bait in very shallow water. I can think back many times we’ve caught shallow walleyes in both lakes and rivers. Overall I think the notion of Walleyes having “sensitive” eyes is a wives tale not backed up in fact. My wifes brother has a cabin on a “gin clear” lake in Park Rapids. You can snorkel around the dock mid-day and observe walleyes , panfish and minnows basking in bright sunlight on any given sunny day. They almost appear to enjoy the sunshine! There is deep water nearby and these walleyes seem to prefer being close to the food source…rather than in deep safety.

I have a book that shows a light test on “a walleye” and in strong light, the fish was rather lethargic. Then again, controlled tests aren’t always “the way it is”.

who knows.. fish live in an alien environment and they dont “think” they only react instinctively… so one of our biggest problems is we tend to think like people, and therefore we are wrong about many aspects of fish behaviour….

Ok, so they don’t think, just react, which we forget. It’s kinda like fishing with me isn’t it Rivereyes? I don’t think, just react, which you forget! LOL!

hmmm it all becomes clear to me now!!! so….. that must mean if i want to find the fish I just ask you, cuz you think like a fish? guess that figures…. if it looks like a fish, smells like a fish, thinks like a fish… its a… well… must be a stillasquid!!…. which is kind of fishy!

I think I was on the right track when I thought to use you for live bait… !!

Wow, thanks for all the responses. James, thanks for giving me some confidence to continue to fish in the mid 80’s (I used to start my honey-do list at 83 degrees). What may have happened to me a few times is that the end of the good wing dam bite just happened to coincide with extended hot weather. This year should be a good test. Our good wingdam bite typically lasts 4-6 weeks. This year it is starting so late (this week ). I’ll see if it continues right through the hot weather 95 degrees predicted next week. If it dies, I will check out other patterns, rather than taking a break and waiting for September. Thanks again for the advice.

I work at a power plant on the river and we are quite intersted in the river temp for making electricity. I personally have made several hundred temperature surveys from a boat, checking at ten locations across the river and at 1,5,10,20, and 25 foot depths. The 1 foot depths (representative of what your boat electronics would measure, range from 0-4 degrees above the 10-25 ft depths. (Early in the morning = 0-1 degree, late afternoon on a sunny day with low river flow=3-4 degrees) you can figure that as the water moves downstream and goes through a dam, it becomes thoroughly mixed and nearly identical in temp from top to bottom. As it continues to moves downstream on a hot sunny day, some heatup of the surface will occur, and some of this surface heat will be transferred to the depths through conduction and mixing (mixing is dependent on river flow). Without making a long boring post, there is a slight bit of short term stratification in current areas, which disappears each night as the sun goes under, air temps cool, and water mixes. The hotest temp I’ve ever seen was 87.1 (average of all depths, shore to shore) in the late 80’s. Thanks again!

I tatally agree with EYE-GUIDE on the thermocline. As far as the shallow bite goes, theres nothing like turning a 20″ eye in 2′ . But I seem to be having a tough time finding them shallow in the Croix right now. I stay south of 94, fish all the way to Red Wing. Having no problem finding shallow fish in pool 3, but they sure have me baffled in the Croix. I don’t want to complain too much, finding plenty of fish from 15′-22′ on cranks. I have pitched jigs, cast cranks, etc. Worked them slow, fast, and everything in between. Even pulled boards at night with floaters, usually a sure fire thing this time of year., right up in the rocks. Maybe were I’m at they did grow legs! Any suggestions would be appreciated. Keep it vertical.

My best day on the water and my biggest walleye was in 1- 1/2 to 2 ft. on a hot bluebird sky day in the early afternoon in August long line trolling, yes trolling that shallow of water. The fish were there because the baitfish were there. Don’t be afraid to try something differant. It might just surprise you. Bill

Great thread, very interesting, gives a guy alot to think about. Answered alot of my questions before i even thought of them.

I love this site!

Thanks Guys.

About that light test….

I’ve never bought into the deal with walleye being ‘light phobic’ or sensitive to light. I’ve walked the rocks south of Maple Spring in my younger days and seen countless healthy fish tucked right up in the rocks and fully exposed to bright sunlight on flat calm days with a cloudless sky over head. If they were indeed “photophobic” I’d assume these fish would simply sink into the mirky depths of the mighty ‘miss.

So here’s my take on walleye lethargy and light penetration….

Walleye have a physical adaptation, a reflective coating inside the eye, that focuses-concentrates light. Baitfish DO NOT have this coating. Baitfish can see well in bright light situations but in dimly lit situations, they’re at a severe disadvantage. Walleye are quite economic with their feeding behavior. By that I mean, if they can get fed without working very hard, they will take the easy route every time. So when does it make the most sense for a walleye to feed heavily? When the light conditions favor their ability to see baitfish that can’t see them coming. So during the middle of the day when light penetration is high or in clear water (or in a test tank) these fish will likely behave quite lethargic as its just not the time to get active and feed. Not until the sun dips a bit lower in the sky that is or maybe some clouds roll in and then its time to chase down a snack with minimal effort. Wind often has the same effect as waves decrease light penetration to the point where walleye again enjoy a physical advantage over their prey. I’m sure we’ve all experienced a nearly immediate improvement in the bite when a strong wind suddenly blows up. Does anyone here actually think that this improved bite can be explained because additional fish migrated onto a windblown shoreline within minutes of the wind picking up? Of course not. I’ve seen countless times where a bad bite turns to a phenomenal bite with the addition of 2′ waves that decrease light penetration and stir the walleye in that area, that had been non-aggressive 10 minutes prior, into a feed binge because they now enjoyed a marked advantage over their prey.

So why does a walleye likely sit nearly motionless in a test tank when subjected to bright light (besides being in an alien environment)? A walleye has been programmed through eons of evolution to basically sit still and conserve energy until the light levels are in their favor to take full advatage of a pretty cool adaptation that gives them an incredible edge over their prey.

So how much of an advantage does the coating give the walleye? Well, I’ve wondered plenty myself and I’ve messed around with minnows near docks at night. Some species, shiners for example, have appeared so helpless to me in low light situations that I was actually able to catch healthy specimens by hand at night. Not just one time either. Hougie saw me do it several times off his dock last fall after we had just come of the river after catching a bunch of nice walleye after dark. Anyone ever try to catch a shiner by hand during the day?! Ain’t gonna happen.

By the way, guess what species of minnows the walleye were disgorging in the boat before we released them? Shiners, of course…LOL

At least that’s what I think. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

James Holst

Moving Waters Guide Service

http://www.movingwaters.net

I’d agree with that theory! If for nothing else, I’m scepticle of controlled test environments.