UAW contract…..Yikes!

  • buckybadger
    Participant
    Upper Midwest
    Posts: 6730
    #2233718

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>TheFamousGrouse wrote:</div>
    Okay, so here’s a good time to compare because there were a lot of hysterics around what the UAW was “demanding” in this contract. Let’s look at what really was negotiated when the dust settled.

    I don’t think there was any Hysterics about what they ended up getting, it was about what they were Demanding. I think the often UAW contract negotiations are going to end up simply putting more and more workers out of a job. Auto manufactures are going to simply move more and more towards automation. Machines don’t keep asking for contract negotiations. Personally I’d prefer more workers making a fair livable wage that few workers making more than their skill and education level demands, just because of a union. Just my .02 worth.

    What exactly is a “fair, livable wage?” Last I checked these people weren’t getting filthy rich even after the union settlement and asked for more money during a time of historic inflation…like every other middle class worker has done or should do.

    How do you determine what their skill and education level demands? To me, I’d say let the market set it. Ironically, it did just that. If the CEO’s and head honchos didn’t need these workers at these wages, they would not have settled or would have found other people to work for less. Clearly the leaders know they can still make profits at these wage rates, otherwise it would not have happened. Nobody is going bankrupt over these nominal increases. I’ll be able to rest easy knowing the CEO’s great great grandkids will still never have to work a day in their lives.

    In the end it seems that the labor market and specifically the supply and demand of laborers sorted this out – as it almost always has.

    Bearcat89
    Participant
    North branch, mn
    Posts: 16912
    #2233829

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>TheFamousGrouse wrote:</div>
    Okay, so here’s a good time to compare because there were a lot of hysterics around what the UAW was “demanding” in this contract. Let’s look at what really was negotiated when the dust settled.

    I don’t think there was any Hysterics about what they ended up getting, it was about what they were Demanding. I think the often UAW contract negotiations are going to end up simply putting more and more workers out of a job. Auto manufactures are going to simply move more and more towards automation. Machines don’t keep asking for contract negotiations. Personally I’d prefer more workers making a fair livable wage that few workers making more than their skill and education level demands, just because of a union. Just my .02 worth.

    They are going to move more and more towards automation any ways. These guys getting a raise is just like you getting a pay increase. No difference. Next time you get more money, just turn it down. It’ll be better for the insurance world and all of us that pay insurance

    big_g
    Participant
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 21609
    #2233831

    According to the link provided, it looks like Toyota was paying near the record 2028 UAW wages already, before the strike started ! Why would they want to sign up for union dues with no more money ? According to below, Top rate for UAW will be over $40 by 2028… and Toyota was increased $3.70 to $43.20.. which means they were at $39.50 already. coffee Does not mention the UAW skilled workers pay.

    Details: Pro-union publication Labor Notes reported Tuesday that Toyota workers got pay increases of $2.94 to a maximum of $34.80 per hour for production workers and $3.70 to a maximum of $43.20 per hour for skilled trades employees.

    Vazin declined to confirm those figures.
    The top rate for production workers at the Detroit Three will be more than $40 by 2028, according to the UAW.

    Bearcat89
    Participant
    North branch, mn
    Posts: 16912
    #2233832

    According to the link provided, it looks like Toyota was paying near the record 2028 UAW wages already, before the strike started ! Why would they want to sign up for union dues with no more money ? According to below, Top rate for UAW will be over $40 by 2028… and Toyota was increased $3.70 to $43.20.. which means they were at $39.50 already. coffee

    Details: Pro-union publication Labor Notes reported Tuesday that Toyota workers got pay increases of $2.94 to a maximum of $34.80 per hour for production workers and $3.70 to a maximum of $43.20 per hour for skilled trades employees.

    Vazin declined to confirm those figures.
    The top rate for production workers at the Detroit Three will be more than $40 by 2028, according to the UAW.

    Good for all of them right. Or are you upset because they make to much ?

    big_g
    Participant
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 21609
    #2233833

    Not at all. Just pointing out Toyota workers do not make $20 less per hour than UAW. Don’t put words in my mouth.

    Bearcat89
    Participant
    North branch, mn
    Posts: 16912
    #2233834

    Not at all. Just pointing out Toyota workers do not make $20 less per hour than UAW. Don’t put words in my mouth.

    I hadn’t put a single word in your mouth. That question mark at the end makes it a question not a statement!

    I was saying this is good for all of them.

    Biggill
    Participant
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11173
    #2233835

    Wasn’t my quote. It was the OP in chief. Either he had bad info he got from fake news, or he intentionally exaggerated.

    big_g
    Participant
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 21609
    #2233836

    It is great for the workers… not for the consumer. Prices were inflated artificially, they should have came back down for the consumer, but now they will not for sure, as they are paying record wage increases. I am all for a free market.. but when the market is manipulated by man made pandemics and government intervention shutdowns, its not a natural market and there is no chance of a correction now… in real simple terms.

    gimruis
    Participant
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 13901
    #2233844

    Aren’t Toyotas made in Japan?

    I have a Rav4 Hyrbid on order and my updates on it indicate it comes from a factory in Japan.

    Bearcat89
    Participant
    North branch, mn
    Posts: 16912
    #2233847

    It is great for the workers… not for the consumer. Prices were inflated artificially, they should have came back down for the consumer, but now they will not for sure, as they are paying record wage increases. I am all for a free market.. but when the market is manipulated by man made pandemics and government intervention shutdowns, its not a natural market and there is no chance of a correction now… in real simple terms.

    I completely agree. But we can’t blame the middle class workers. You think the big 3 were about to drop prices after every one special ordered a 23 with 1 year wait list at the very top market value ?

    CaptainMusky
    Participant
    Posts: 17452
    #2233849

    Aren’t Toyotas made in Japan?

    I know Tundras are made in Texas but not sure about the rest of their lineup.

    big_g
    Participant
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 21609
    #2233853

    Camry, Rav4 and Lexis are built in Kentucky

    gimruis
    Participant
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 13901
    #2233854

    Camry, Rav4 and Lexis are built in Kentucky

    That’s odd. My Rav4 Hybrid sends updates from a factory in Japan. Its currently coming “across the pond.”

    Maybe the hybrids are different.

    Apparently you can tell by the VIN number. I don’t have that yet.

    The first character in a 17-character VIN will identify the country of origin.. 1, 4, and 5 are US build vehicles.

    CaptainMusky
    Participant
    Posts: 17452
    #2233856

    I bet the hybrids and evs are different Gim. I am pretty sure the Prius my son ordered is coming from Japan too.

    Biggill
    Participant
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11173
    #2233875

    Aren’t Toyotas made in Japan?

    I have a Rav4 Hyrbid on order and my updates on it indicate it comes from a factory in Japan.

    For many years Toyota always bragged their vehicles were more American made than the big 3 American automakers.

    fishthumper
    Participant
    Sartell, MN.
    Posts: 10065
    #2233876

    It’ll be better for the insurance world and all of us that pay insurance

    Just for the record. There has been 3 Commission Cuts since I became a insurance agent 7 Years ago. In the 20 Years prior there had never been a commission cut at this company. I don’t need to worry about giving back More money that I make. Just how to sell more to get by for what I lost. Agents pay is such a small amount of overall premiums paid. Things like record loss’s and record Increase is labor rates and Parts and Materials plays the biggest roll. The insurance industry is highly controlled by the state and federal government. I bet when you want to raise the rate on the service you provide you don’t need to get approval from a government agency. By the way, If you are interested in Becoming an insurance agent, Let me know, I’ll get you in touch with someone who can get you started. I know there are several decent size agencies you could purchase to get you started, or you could start from scratch.

    Bearcat89
    Participant
    North branch, mn
    Posts: 16912
    #2233890

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Bearcat89 wrote:</div>
    It’ll be better for the insurance world and all of us that pay insurance

    Just for the record. There has been 3 Commission Cuts since I became a insurance agent 7 Years ago. In the 20 Years prior there had never been a commission cut at this company. I don’t need to worry about giving back More money that I make. Just how to sell more to get by for what I lost. Agents pay is such a small amount of overall premiums paid. Things like record loss’s and record Increase is labor rates and Parts and Materials plays the biggest roll. The insurance industry is highly controlled by the state and federal government. I bet when you want to raise the rate on the service you provide you don’t need to get approval from a government agency. By the way, If you are interested in Becoming an insurance agent, Let me know, I’ll get you in touch with someone who can get you started. I know there are several decent size agencies you could purchase to get you started, or you could start from scratch.

    The insurance comparison wasn’t that great, I’m just trying to say that these guys are middle class workers that deserve to make a living like the rest of us. We all work in hopes to make more one day. I don’t blame them for the strike. Hell it worked. As for the work, I appreciate the offer, but I enjoy working with my hands and not doing computer stuff. The day my body breaks, I’ll kick my own ass for that

    TheFamousGrouse
    Participant
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 10676
    #2233892

    What exactly is a “fair, livable wage?”

    This is defined as something some claim to be in favor of right before they claim that someone else is making too much. It is often accompanied by the hanging implication that this group’s skills, knowledge, and abilities really aren’t worth what they’re being paid, it’s all down to the unfair power of the you-know-what.

    Ironically, the same people will never be heard complaining that executives are making too much. That’s just the free market doing its thing.

    And BTW, speaking of knowledge, skills, and abilities, if you ever want to see jobs where there is less than zero correlation between performance and pay, just look a American c-level executives.

    R Petersen
    Participant
    Posts: 133
    #2233894

    Sadly the most greedy people run most companies. Without PERSONALLY doing anything to justify higher payouts to them.
    But they do accept billion dollar loans from the US government.

    The auto companies DO DO have a organized bargaining group. At every contract renegotiation. 2 groups / unions looking for the best terms.

    Dutchboy
    Participant
    Central Mn.
    Posts: 15513
    #2233907

    Sadly the most greedy people run most companies. Without PERSONALLY doing anything to justify higher payouts to them.
    But they do accept billion dollar loans from the US government.

    The auto companies DO DO have a organized bargaining group. At every contract renegotiation. 2 groups / unions looking for the best terms.

    So the guys at the top who guide the record sales that employ 1,000s and 1,000 of people don’t earn there their money?

    Ron
    Participant
    Victoria, mn
    Posts: 796
    #2233927

    So the guys at the top who guide the record sales that employ 1,000s and 1,000 of people don’t earn there their money?

    Is a CEO 362, 281 or 365 times more valuable than a line worker? Not in my opinion, but I don’t know what the ratio should be.
    CEO-worker 2022 compensation at Big Three automakers
    General Motors
    CEO Mary Barra: $29 million
    Median worker: $80,034
    CEO-worker pay ratio: 362-to-1
    Ford
    CEO Jim Farley: $21 million
    Median worker: $74,691
    CEO-worker pay ratio: 281-to-1
    Stellantis
    CEO Carlos Tavares: $24.8 million
    Average worker: $67,789
    CEO-worker pay ratio: 365-to-1

    Source: U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission filings

    picklerick
    Participant
    Central WI
    Posts: 1196
    #2233964

    Why “should” there be a certain ratio between what the CEO makes and the median worker’s pay? They’re completely different positions. By definition, half the workers make more than the median and half make less. There’s a huge range of skills, company needs, and education levels required across an entire company. Comparing median worker pay to that of a single CEO is pointless unless class envy is the motivator. I can’t think of any other reason to compare them but maybe I’m not thinking it through. It’s none of my business what a company pays any person unless that person is me. I don’t mind UAW folks negotiating a better agreement and I don’t mind the CEO getting paid, either. I think the main way to retain quality people doing their jobs well is to compensate them well from the floor sweeper all the way up the chain.

    Biggill
    Participant
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11173
    #2233965

    Why “should” there be a certain ratio between what the CEO makes and the median worker’s pay? They’re completely different positions. By definition, half the workers make more than the median and half make less. There’s a huge range of skills, company needs, and education levels required across an entire company. Comparing median worker pay to that of a single CEO is pointless unless class envy is the motivator. I can’t think of any other reason to compare them but maybe I’m not thinking it through. It’s none of my business what a company pays any person unless that person is me. I don’t mind UAW folks negotiating a better agreement and I don’t mind the CEO getting paid, either. I think the main way to retain quality people doing their jobs well is to compensate them well from the floor sweeper all the way up the chain.

    Because it shows where a disproportionate portion of payroll and company profits go. So when it comes to line to decide whether or not a company can “afford” the UAW negotiations, it should be a factor.

    Dutchboy
    Participant
    Central Mn.
    Posts: 15513
    #2233986

    jester

    Biggill
    Participant
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11173
    #2233992

    Yeah, it sure is hilarious when those entitled, lazy union members walk off the job. Those execs are definitely laughing.

    picklerick
    Participant
    Central WI
    Posts: 1196
    #2233997

    Every company that ever existed paid their CEO and Management disproportionately more than line workers. Reality. I asked why there should be a “certain ratio”. You didn’t answer that. Of course, it’s a “factor” just like all operating expenses for every company. It looks to me that the big three are pretty aligned when it comes to CEO compensation compared to “median salary”. I’m just wondering how a “certain ratio” works in the real world and why it’s even brought up. GM had approx 58k employees in 2022. Tens of thousands of them couldn’t do the job of many in Management and Management including the CEO most likely couldn’t do their jobs. Why even compare them? Class envy is the only thing I’m sure about. Can you give me something else? I’m open to being wrong. It’s not all that uncommon.

    Biggill
    Participant
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11173
    #2233998

    You pretty much answered your own question. Why should there be a certain wage range for the workers?

    The answer is how it affects the workers. You and so many others have no issue justifying ballooning executive pay but cannot fathom giving the workers same raises. At some point they will rebel.

    picklerick
    Participant
    Central WI
    Posts: 1196
    #2233999

    There isn’t. Contract negotiations proved it. Try harder next time.

    Biggill
    Participant
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11173
    #2234000

    There isn’t. Contract negotiations proved it. Try harder next time.

    There are pay scales for all workers. Pull your head out of the sand.

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