Border Agents Detain 7 who Snowmobiled into US from Canada

From KSTP.com. Interesting comment about differences in law between ice and water. Wonder who the guides were?

Border Agents Detain 7 who Snowmobiled into US from Canada

March 28, 2018 11:47 AM

U.S. border agents detained seven people they say entered the country illegally from Canada by crossing a portion of Rainy Lake on snowmobiles.

A release from U.S. Customs and Border Protection Wednesday says three of the seven were fishing guides, and the other four were their clients. All seven are American citizens.

The group was seen by agents crossing Rainy Lake on Saturday near Dryweed Island, and located later at a nearby lodge, according to the release. The seven told agents they had been fishing in Canada.

The three guides were cited for failing to report their arrival into the United States, and agents seized the five snowmobiles used. The other four were given a warning and released.

“While open water at the border has unique requirements when traveling by boat, once it becomes a solid surface, it is treated as a land boundary,” the release says. A first violation of the law could mean $5,000 in fines, and each subsequent violation could mean $10,000 in penalties.

Yikes, that’s an expensive fishing trip!

Yeah, I’m also curious about who the guides were. It could have been an oversight but if I’m hiring a guide, I darn well expect they would follow all the appropriate laws on my trip.

There are tons of people who do this and I am sure majority don’t check back in when they get here. I talked to a group of guys in the cleaning shack at the AmericInn in Baudette who had all been up in Canada fishing for the day. I had asked them if they checked in and they said no. Not that I am going to turn anyone in and I honestly wasn’t even sure on the law myself, but that seems a bit lame to change the definition based on it being ice vs open water.

zooks wrote:

Yeah, I’m also curious about who the guides were. It could have been an oversight but if I’m hiring a guide, I darn well expect they would follow all the appropriate laws on my trip.

I hope they hadn’t tipped the guides yet.

From the IFalls Journal

http://www.ifallsjournal.com/news/outdoors/attorney-to-investigate-ice-as-land-issue-question-follows-citation/article_57ff3542-53aa-5784-b76b-e3c752bc2944.html

CONSERVATION OFFICER REPORT: 3/26/18

District 5 — Eveleth area
top story
Attorney to investigate ice as land issue: Question follows citation of fishing guides

By LAUREL BEAGER Editor Mar 27, 2018 Updated 23 hrs ago (…)

Whether the federal government has the ability to treat ice as land in enforcing boundary regulations will be investigated following the citations of three local fishing guides.

Attorney Brian Toder, with the Minneapolis firm of Chestnut Cambronne Attorneys at Law, told The Journal today that he will represent three men cited by U.S. Border Patrol Agents Saturday for failure to report arrival into the United States.

Toder represents licensed guides Barry “Woody” Woods and Ryan Smith, and Willy Lyons, who may not have been working as a guide Saturday.

The U.S. Border Patrol in a news release issued today said the agents observed five snowmobiles travel south from Canada and illegally enter the United States on Rainy Lake near Dryweed Island.

Agents responded to investigate and found seven people at a local lodge. Through questioning, it was determined that all of the individuals were citizens of the United States and that they had been fishing in Canada, said a CBP news release.

At issue, said Toder, is whether ice can be treated by CBP as land.

The CPB news release said: “While open water at the border has unique requirements when traveling by boat, once it becomes a solid surface, it is treated as a land boundary.”

Toder said he’s investigating whether there is anything on the books that says ice should be treated as land when it comes to the federal laws on entry to the United States.

“Either there is a regulation or administrative law decision or there isn’t – it’s as simple as that,” he said.

Toder said he wants to know whether the “theory is memorialized in the regulations or not. The CBP can’t make it up as they go along. There is no statute that says that. Obviously enabling legislation allows the government to promulgate regulations, but there is protocol in development.”

If the CBP is right – that it may enforce the entry laws on ice as if on land – there is no fight over that part of the citation, Toder said.

“This might be a case of first impression – legally that means it’s a unique situation presented to the courts for the first time, something the courts have never seen before,” he said.

“If they’re right, it’s not an issue we’re challenging,” he said.

Meanwhile, the CBP said once a border is crossed you have to seek re-admission at a designated port of entry. Failure to report can result in civil penalties as defined in Title 19, United States Code, Section 1436 to include a penalty of $5,000 for the first violation and $10,000 for each subsequent violation with the conveyance subject to seizure and forfeiture.

The three guides were cited and the five snowmobiles used seized. The four clients of the guides were released after being issued an administrative warning and were advised of the proper reporting procedures.

“Being informed and knowing your surroundings is the best way to ensure that you are complying with the law,” said Division Chief Michael Hanson in the release.

You can report suspicious activity anonymously at 1-800-982-4077, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week or email at [email protected].

CaptainMusky wrote:

There are tons of people who do this and I am sure majority don’t check back in when they get here. I talked to a group of guys in the cleaning shack at the AmericInn in Baudette who had all been up in Canada fishing for the day. I had asked them if they checked in and they said no.

If you do that on your own, that’s your risk to take and price to pay if you get caught. If I’m hiring a guide, I’m assuming everything that I’m paying for is on the up and up.

IOW, I’d be really steamed if the guide says “hey, let’s ride over to the Thunderbird for lunch, I do it all the time” and I get my gear and/or sled seized by CBP as a result.

Jon Jordan wrote:

From the IFalls Journal

At issue, said Toder, is whether ice can be treated by CBP as land.

The CPB news release said: “While open water at the border has unique requirements when traveling by boat, once it becomes a solid surface, it is treated as a land boundary.”

Toder said he’s investigating whether there is anything on the books that says ice should be treated as land when it comes to the federal laws on entry to the United States.

“Either there is a regulation or administrative law decision or there isn’t – it’s as simple as that,” he said.

Toder said he wants to know whether the “theory is memorialized in the regulations or not. The CBP can’t make it up as they go along. There is no statute that says that. Obviously enabling legislation allows the government to promulgate regulations, but there is protocol in development.”

If the CBP is right – that it may enforce the entry laws on ice as if on land – there is no fight over that part of the citation, Toder said.

This is interesting, I’ll be curious to see how this turns out. Not sure if it would change how I would feel if I was the customer that day but it’s interesting nonetheless.

Woody has been guiding up there since he was 9 years old. It will be interesting to see how this comes out.

Woody’s famous line……..”I’ll take a stray hook in the ass, but I ain’t takin’ American Express.”

This stuff happens all the time. They just happened to catch them this time around. As far as I’m concerned the state of the water shouldn’t mater. If it’s OK to cross during the summer and not report then it should be the same during the winter.

BTW why is it not ok for Americans to cross our border returning home but ok for others to wander in and be protected?

I wonder if this would be a non issue if I falls declaired themselfs as a sanctuary city?

blackbay wrote:

This stuff happens all the time. They just happened to catch them this time around.

If this guy is well known up there and has been doing this for a long time it may be that the authorities simply decided to bring him in line with the rules. Maybe officials wanted to make sure the border rules were working as they were meant to.

If a guy is a licensed US guide, I would think he’d want to comply with the rules and laws simply to protect those he’s got under his wing as paying clients. If he’s taking friends across to fish and they’re breaking laws by not checking in on a return [and quite possibly by not announcing their entering], then this guy needs to have his arse in binders.

I’m glad to hear someone is challenging the “2 rules” situation. It seems monumentally stupid to have a border crossing where the rules change by the state of matter.

Since we have water and ice rules, presumably the border patrol also has a third different set rules for crossing in a thick fog?

Grouse

TheFamousGrouse wrote:

I’m glad to hear someone is challenging the “2 rules” situation. It seems monumentally stupid to have a border crossing where the rules change by the state of matter.

Since we have water and ice rules, presumably the border patrol also has a third different set rules for crossing in a thick fog?

Grouse

LOL. was just pondering the same…but than again, it does, as it turns to gas, you “fly” over it.

Tom Sawvell wrote:

If a guy is a licensed US guide,

They don’t need a Coast Guard license for ice fishing. Just motorized boats including duck boats.

I’m torn on this. One one hand the law is the law. If they broke the law then they pay. If on the other hand there isn’t a law then I guess you get a lawyer and fight it out. Be interesting to know if they hired this guy or if he is a ambulance chaser looking to get him name in the paper.

Hopefully more info to follow.

BTW, it’s been a big year for customs busts up on the border. Lots of drugs and illegal stuff cross that border. Lots by rail but also some crossing on the water.

So is there an actual rule book written in plain English and not lawyer-speak on this?

If the only thing out there is something written in lawyer-speak and hidden 573 pages into a 3429 page book then how can anyone know every single rule put in place to “protect” us? I’ve tried to find specific laws on things and after a week of searching I gave up. IMO, if you want us to follow the rules make it easy to find and read them.

When you hire a mechanic you assume he knows motors.
When you hire a doctor you assume he knows medicine.
When you hire a guide on the border you assume he knows the rules of the border.

Would you expect a metro river guide to know the rules of both Wisconsin & Minnesota?

Brian Klawitter wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Tom Sawvell wrote:</div>
If a guy is a licensed US guide,

They don’t need a Coast Guard license for ice fishing. Just motorized boats including duck boats.

I’m aware of that Brian. I was trying to make the point that if he is licensed as a guy in the US, or a state like MN in the US, he should be well aware of what is right and what is not right as it pertains to leaving and entering the country. Even moreso he if he’s from the border area and is guiding he should be super aware of those specific regulations. I’m sure that some of this goes on up there however it doesn’t mean its ok to do so. I think this guy is known to do this on a regular basis and the law decided to reel him in a bit. I think he’ll get a huge warning and cut free of any fines….unless he has already been warned. If that’s the case he should be stripped of his guiding liberties because paying clients are probably involved. As kids we used of have match wars with stick matches. It was fun until someone got burned. Same thing here.

I spose a judge to order them to stop guiding…

I don’t know what kind of insurance they would have but mine clearly states that if I’m breaking the law I have no coverage.

I think the guys that lost their sleds aren’t going to be too happy.

Jon Jordan wrote:

Toder represents licensed guides Barry “Woody” Woods and Ryan Smith, and Willy Lyons, who may not have been working as a guide Saturday.

What is not being reported in this story is that the whistle blower on this whole deal was NOT the Border Patrol witnessing an illegal crossing. They crossed nowhere near Dryweed Island on the way back – as reported. It was a call made from a private individual (who happens to be the Boss at US Customs) steamed that the guides were fishing to close to his wolf baits near his family’s property in Ontario and adjacent to the protected confines of VNP. He himself probably crosses there regularly on the way to and from his property bordering Voyageurs National Park without calling in. That said, the rules are the rules and these guys are Professional Licensed Guides…not part time teachers and part time guides or whatever…they absolutely know the laws and so does every other local up there. Nobody “calls in” when they carry a Nexus Card. The locals AND the guy who is behind it know this. They are making an example out of them for some reason. I don’t claim to know “all” the facts here but there is a lot more to the story than the Press Releases are printing. I know they feel terribly about how it went down for their clients! Both Schmitty and Woody are top notch guides. This has some local flavor that the public will never read about.

Ryan lost 3 sleds and Woody lost one.

And this Deron is no different then the first report. Different views that neither side has proved. We will just see how the courts handle this and form our opinions from there.

I don’t know how anybody knows for sure who called the tip in. How do you know who it was? Did Canadian customs tell you his name? Lots of axes to grind in life, we will see if this case is one of them.

TheFamousGrouse wrote:

I’m glad to hear someone is challenging the “2 rules” situation. It seems monumentally stupid to have a border crossing where the rules change by the state of matter.

Since we have water and ice rules, presumably the border patrol also has a third different set rules for crossing in a thick fog?

Grouse

Right on Grouse! The issue here is becoming the “ice is land” thing but that is not what created the whole deal. Should be interesting…this was a wolf hunting vs ice fisherman conversation initially…curiously by both parties directly involved. Maybe something more valuable for everyone will be the result.

Any thoughts on if this “Ice is Land” debate goes through, could it make access to private lakes through rite of ways, frozen waterways/creeks, ditches etc. tougher on non border waters? This might have serious implications for all Minnesota sportsman.

Dutchboy wrote:

And this Deron is no different then the first report. Different views that neither side has proved. We will just see how the courts handle this and form our opinions from there.

I don’t know how anybody knows for sure who called the tip in. How do you know who it was? Did Canadian customs tell you his name? Lots of axes to grind in life, we will see if this case is one of them.

Maybe Mr. J…will release his phone records for us showing the time frame after the confrontation on the ice took place. Oh that’s right, nobody mentioned that… I wasn’t there, but this was in no way non typical behavior for those that cross the border remotely every day.

Bottom line is the “law is the law”. Tough to defend that unless they determine ice is actually frozen water… They will likely pay the price.

I wasn’t attacking or defending anybody. Quite the opposite. I remember the day the cop up in Cold Spring? (forgive me for a bad memory) got killed. Everybody buried the guy first announced as the shooter. I said to wait and let the dust settle before convicting anybody. Turns out the guy accused didn’t do anything yet his life was nearly ruined. Thats my point here. Nobody knows the whole story or any facts. I don’t know every name listed so I don’t want to throw rocks. No sense in picking sides unless a person was there and was willing to tell the whole story in court.

MNdrifter wrote:

Any thoughts on if this “Ice is Land” debate goes through, could it make access to private lakes through rite of ways, frozen waterways/creeks, ditches etc. tougher on non border waters? This might have serious implications for all Minnesota sportsman.

Good point drifter. Implications and legal interpretations may have effects that were not intended. The individuals involved have no shot against an employee of the United States Federal Government. I doubt this will get any legal legs.

Dutchboy wrote:

I wasn’t attacking or defending anybody. Quite the opposite. I remember the day the cop up in Cold Spring? (forgive me for a bad memory) got killed. Everybody buried the guy first announced as the shooter. I said to wait and let the dust settle before convicting anybody. Turns out the guy accused didn’t do anything yet his life was nearly ruined. Thats my point here. Nobody knows the whole story or any facts. I don’t know every name listed so I don’t want to throw rocks. No sense in picking sides unless a person was there and was willing to tell the whole story in court.

Agreed Dutchboy. I didn’t take it as such. I just feel badly that these guys are involved in a local “this is my territory” deal, particularly when the aggressor in the case is a highly positioned Federal Employee. None of this has even been mentioned btw. You are correct in that I do NOT know exactly what took place and I do know the guides involved quite well. I do not know the other American involved in the territorial debate that took place in Canada. This will never see the courts. I am in no position to throw rocks either. Not my intent. Just frustrated that “we/us”…the public, does not get the whole story. We just get the press release by the one side that has a bottomless budget and access to every media outlet.