Tough To Load Muzzleloader

  • Thomas Brynildson
    Otter Tail County
    Posts: 26
    #1812644

    So I have a pretty cheap 50 cal muzzleloader. One of those that you can find on the shelf at any sporting goods store for like 150-200 bucks. It is EXTREMELY difficult to load any of the sabots that you need to load into a sleeve before shoving it down the barrel. Like, I have to use almost all of my strength to get it down into the barrel. When I push it completely through and it comes out the other side the plastic sleeve has some tearing on it, as it was clearly rubbing against the rifling of the barrel. A powerbelt loads in just fine, at least I think. It is still tough to get down the barrel but I can do it in one motion, where as with the sleeved sabots it takes every ounce of effort that I’ve got. I have not shot this weapon as I am worried that it would explode. Has anyone else come across this issue or know what could be going on? Is it safe to fire the powerbelts? I would never try and fire the sleeved sabots with how tough those go in so don’t worry about that. I just am hoping to get this figured out as muzzleloader opened last Saturday!

    sticker
    StillwaterMN/Ottertail county
    Posts: 4418
    #1812663

    My first question is are you sure you are trying to load the correct caliber bullet? If you are trying to load a 50 cal bullet in a 45 cal muzzy you will have a problem. I would check the engraving on the barrel and make sure you actually have a 50 cal.

    Huntindave
    Shell Rock Iowa
    Posts: 3014
    #1812665

    At this point I would not spend any money on a hunting license. It does not sound like you or your weapon are properly prepared to hunt yet.
    Going to the range a putting a couple hundred rounds thru the gun will help breaking in the barrel. Trying different types of projectiles and different amounts of powder will tell you what load, groups the best out of your gun.

    After doing this you will be better prepared for next season.

    Thomas Brynildson
    Otter Tail County
    Posts: 26
    #1812701

    My first question is are you sure you are trying to load the correct caliber bullet? If you are trying to load a 50 cal bullet in a 45 cal muzzy you will have a problem. I would check the engraving on the barrel and make sure you actually have a 50 cal.

    Yup, it is definitely a 50 cal. That was one of the first things I checked when it was so dang difficult to load the sabot.

    At this point I would not spend any money on a hunting license. It does not sound like you or your weapon are properly prepared to hunt yet.
    Going to the range a putting a couple hundred rounds thru the gun will help breaking in the barrel. Trying different types of projectiles and different amounts of powder will tell you what load, groups the best out of your gun.

    After doing this you will be better prepared for next season.

    Well I will certainly still hunt this season. After spending over half of the firearms season in the stand I am still looking for a larger buck. Had three wind me this year before they got out of the brush.. have never had so many nice deer approach my stand from weird angles. Maybe next year I’ll just politely ask them to stick to the deer trails so that they walk into my shooting lane and I can play the wind properly waytogo

    I don’t know about firing a couple hundred rounds, as I haven’t even fired that many through my deer rifle that I’ve used since I was 12, but I will certainly take your suggestion and try different projectiles and powders tomorrow afternoon to find the right fit. Thank you for that suggestion! All that I’m concerned about is just how tight those sabots were in the barrel. My main question is do I need to worry about a sabot or powerbelt obstructing the barrel too much?

    Furthest shot I have from any of my stands is about 80 yards, with 90% of the deer I’ve ever shot being within 50. So I don’t really need pinpoint accuracy to push a bullet into the boiler room, but if I’m not able to put a bullet within a couple inches of my target I’m not going out. I’ll see if I can get a solid group at 80 tomorrow and if that’s the case, game on. If not, I’ll probably just grab the bow and see if I can get a deer close enough.

    David Blais
    Posts: 764
    #1812710

    Some bullets load tighter then others. Make sure the barrel is cleaned. Especially your breach

    riverruns
    Inactive
    Posts: 2218
    #1812714

    I have a CVA Accura. I’m shooting 100 grains of triple 7. 245 grain powerbelt. 50 cal. On a cleaned barrel I can get the first load in just fine. Second load it starts to get tough to seat it. Third load almost impossible to get the bullet to seat against the pellets. I dry patch it after the first shot then load. After I dry patch it for a couple shots it needs to be cleaned. A bullet won’t seat against the pellets at that point if I don’t clean it.

    Talking to a few other people that shoot, they seem to have similar issues as me.

    It sounds like this weapon has never been shot? Has it been fired before?

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1812715

    What are you loading as a propellant? If you are trying to shoot three four or five shots using Triple 7 pellets, or white hots or those blue things and are using a 209 primer, you’ll have what’s called a crud ring to deal with and loading in some guns can be almost impossible unless you damp swab between each shot.

    This “crud ring” can begin emmediately above where the top of the pellet column is on the barrel when loaded and can extend for several inches up the bore. This ring is due to the heat of the primer at ignition. I’ve seen rods busted off trying to force a load after only one shot.

    I’d pick up some Triple 7 rs granulated powder and see if the loading is easier and junk the pellets unless you want to do the swabbing. Changing to the “muzzleloader” type 209 primers [they’re cooler than shotshell reloading 209 primers] will not help the issue while shooting with the pellets.

    You could switch to Pyrodex granular but I suggest you still stay away from even those pellets regardless that they are not as powerful as the T7 pellets….crud rings can happen with them too.

    It should not have to be mentioned, but those package guns and all muzzleloaders regardless of brand and/or caliber and/or ignition style need to be thoroughly cleaned prior to any loades being fired. They are generally shipped with a cosmoline type of rust inhibiting grease coating the bores. To simply run a patch through before the first shot is not enough. That grease has to be brushed out using a wire cleaning brush and a solvent like Hoppes, then patched until the patches come out clean and dry. Then its ready to shoot. Shooting with any trace of that grease in there will simply cook it onto the barrel surfaces and increase the loading resistance. Coupled with pellet use and I can see a gun hardly loadable after a shot or two. Personally I’d knock the load out the breach after removing the plug and giving the barrel a super good scrubbing with the solvent, then finishing up with dry patches. If you are NOT using the BH209 powder, clean the gun thereafter with water based cleaners or windex w/ammonia. Be certain to clean the breech plug at both ends too. On the powder end use a COPPER wire to clean out the fire hole in that face of the plug. On the primer end use a drill bit that fits into the pocket and another that fits into the smaller, flame channel behind where the primer goes. Wash the plug well after using the bits and wire and dry well making certain that the fire hole is absolutely clear and you can see light thru it when held up to a light. When the barrel and plug are completely dry, run a patch damped with a small bit of oil thru the barrel and wipe down the plug and gun’s metal surfaces with a lightly oiled cloth. Store your gun with the plug NOT installed.

    If you are going to stick with using pellets, carry a good supply of patches slightly damped with some windex in a sealable container or a zip lock bag. Carry dry patches in another. Simply run a damp patch thru the bore and then a dry patch or two. Pop a cap or primer, then load and primer and you’re ready to go. Loading done as such will be a whole lot easier, but there is no shortcut for doing this if you stick with the pellets and even Pyrodex and T7 granulated can cause this crud ring headache. Making the switch to the BH209 powder will make life much easier for you in the reloading department if your gun is compatible for the powder with a factory breech plug. T/C’s and Traditions package guns are ready right from the go, but CVA’s call for a plugs specifically designed for the 209 powder.

    I’ve been doing this muzzle loader stuff since around 1966 and learned a few tricks. One of the most valuable was to NOT use those Powerbelt bullets. Pick up some 250 to 300 grain sabots/bullets. These will off a far better terminal performance for you and can be manipulated with a multitude of charges. And I’d really, really advise you to shoot that 209 powder, getting the necessary plug if needed to do so. The 209 powder is way less corrosive. Its nearly smoke-free upon ignition and you can shoot thirty rounds without having to run so much as a patch thru the barrel and even a $150.00 package gun can get 1″ at 100 yard accuracy with sabots/bullets.

    rubberduck
    east bethel
    Posts: 436
    #1812737

    bore butter is nice but shouldn’t need it

    Huntindave
    Shell Rock Iowa
    Posts: 3014
    #1812741

    I have not shot this weapon as I am worried that it would explode.

    After spending over half of the firearms season in the stand I am still looking for a larger buck.

    So I don’t really need pinpoint accuracy to push a bullet into the boiler room, but if I’m not able to put a bullet within a couple inches of my target I’m not going out.

    Your statements seem to contradict each other. You have been out in the stand already yet you have never fired your weapon?

    Don Meier
    Butternut Wisconsin
    Posts: 1591
    #1812742

    Go to Doug’s Message Board they have everything you need to know about muzzle loaders . They are willing to help . I shoot a Savage ML2 which uses smokeless powder i hand weigh every load . Be meticulous on how you approach this,read everything you can , could be as simple as trying a different sabot.Harvester makes very good sabots. Get a round lead ball push it all the way thru and mike the dia. it will give you an accurate bore dia. Basic muzzleloader knowledge will get you started in the right direction.Safety wize put a witness mark on your ramrod to make sure you do not double load. Good luck

    David Blais
    Posts: 764
    #1812749

    I would expect a muzzelloader needing cleaning after 2-3 shots

    riverruns
    Inactive
    Posts: 2218
    #1812757

    Thanks for the info Tom. Since I’m already into our muzzy season I’ll stick with what I’m doing but I’ll start researching other options. Not against using powder and other bullets. Now I have some sort of s tsrting point. waytogo

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1812775

    Thomas, I assume you hunted the regular season without having fired your shotgun or centerfire and are now hunting the muzzleloader season?

    Unless a person is going to shoot full bore bullets without sabots the bore measurement is moot. The Harvester sabots though, that’s good info. Every gun is different when it comes to bore diameter, even in the same caliber. Using the 50 cal as an example one CVA Wolf might be tight using a .452 bullet [45 cal] and smooth black sabot, yet load easily with the same .425 bullet and a crush rib. Personally I use .430 diameter bullets [.44 cal] in my 50 cal guns and either a plain green sabot or a green crush rib, depending on the gun.

    MMP makes a great sabot as well.

    Weighing powder on a scale is what I do as well. I like to know exactly how much I am dumping down my barrel not only for safety but for the accuracy factor. A person needs to study up on weighing charges and needs to understand the difference between a weighed charge and a charge by measured volume. They need to know the powder too….all powders are not created equal.

    The witness mark on your rod can be done using tape or magic marker or scratched into the rod’s surface. Regardless of how its put there, a witness mark is prudent and a sound safety practice. Its a mark put on the ramrod after loading which shows the gun either having a load in it or not. Good advice Don. That slipped by me.

    Thomas Brynildson
    Otter Tail County
    Posts: 26
    #1812795

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Thomas Brynildson wrote:</div>
    I have not shot this weapon as I am worried that it would explode.

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Thomas Brynildson wrote:</div>
    After spending over half of the firearms season in the stand I am still looking for a larger buck.

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Thomas Brynildson wrote:</div>
    So I don’t really need pinpoint accuracy to push a bullet into the boiler room, but if I’m not able to put a bullet within a couple inches of my target I’m not going out.

    Your statements seem to contradict each other. You have been out in the stand already yet you have never fired your weapon?

    I was using a rifle during firearm season. Since it is now Muzzleloader season, I would be using that weapon and that is what I have not shot yet.

    Thomas, I assume you hunted the regular season without having fired your shotgun or centerfire and are now hunting the muzzleloader season?

    I used a 30.06 during the firearm season and now will be hunting the muzzleloader season. I have shot that weapon many times over the years. The muzzleloader is what is new. I clearly stated things funny in my original posts so I apologize for that confusion.

    Also THANK YOU for all of your input, I will take into consideration what you have said. I really appreciate the time you took to provide that type of information to me.

    Go to Doug’s Message Board they have everything you need to know about muzzle loaders . They are willing to help . I shoot a Savage ML2 which uses smokeless powder i hand weigh every load . Be meticulous on how you approach this,read everything you can , could be as simple as trying a different sabot.Harvester makes very good sabots. Get a round lead ball push it all the way thru and mike the dia. it will give you an accurate bore dia. Basic muzzleloader knowledge will get you started in the right direction.Safety wize put a witness mark on your ramrod to make sure you do not double load. Good luck

    Thanks for that lead. I’ll look into that, along with everything you said.

    I would expect a muzzelloader needing cleaning after 2-3 shots

    That is about how often I plan on cleaning mine. I do like to take care of my weapons so the bore will have to look pretty clean for me to continue shooting after 3 shots.

    bore butter is nice but shouldn’t need it

    I have applied bore butter already, thanks for the suggestion!

    I have a CVA Accura. I’m shooting 100 grains of triple 7. 245 grain powerbelt. 50 cal. On a cleaned barrel I can get the first load in just fine. Second load it starts to get tough to seat it. Third load almost impossible to get the bullet to seat against the pellets. I dry patch it after the first shot then load. After I dry patch it for a couple shots it needs to be cleaned. A bullet won’t seat against the pellets at that point if I don’t clean it.

    Talking to a few other people that shoot, they seem to have similar issues as me.

    It sounds like this weapon has never been shot? Has it been fired before?

    Correct, this weapon has not been shot yet. I have cleaned it once and applied bore butter, as I wanted to get a general idea of the process before cleaning it “for real”. My exact current situation with this weapon is it is new, I have cleaned it, and I am now looking to shoot it a couple times to get things figured out before hitting the stand this weekend. What concerned me when practicing to load it is the sleeved sabots really struggled to be put in and I used 2 different brands which made me wonder if my weapon was faulty. The powerbelt load much easier.

    beardly
    Hastings, Mn
    Posts: 439
    #1812796

    bore butter is nice but shouldn’t need it

    I’ve found bore butter to be extremely helpful in making loading easier as well as cleaning.

    Huntindave
    Shell Rock Iowa
    Posts: 3014
    #1812834

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>rubberduck wrote:</div>
    bore butter is nice but shouldn’t need it

    I’ve found bore butter to be extremely helpful in making loading easier as well as cleaning.

    I too like the Bore Butter product.

    I’ll suggest you “polish” the bore of the barrel using a patch of “Lead Away Cloth”. I understand there is no lead in your barrel however this cloth will do a very good job off polishing away all the microscopic burrs left from the rifling process.
    Most likely the first “Lead Away” patch run down thru the barrel will be as tough to push thru as what you are experiencing now. Never fear, continue running it thru and thru again several times. When it no longer “drags” replace it with a fresh one and repeat.
    After several patches you will find a huge improvement in the “feel” of the bore and the ease in which either a projectile or a cleaning patch will go thru the bore.
    Lead Away link

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1812856

    Bore butter is for lubing patches for round ball shooting and is not for greasing a bore when shooting sabots. Sabots should be shot in a dry barrel. In fact a person should run a patch dampened with windex thru a cleaned bore followed by a dry patch to remove any oils left from storing prior to loading to be certain that any oils have been removed.

    So you have not shot this gun yet but have cleaned the barrel and are still getting hard loading?. What exactly is the sabot bullet combination being used? More to the point, what color is the sabot and what is the bullet diameter…. .451, .452, .429, .430 ?

    FishBlood&RiverMud
    Prescott
    Posts: 6687
    #1813580

    So I have a pretty cheap 50 cal muzzleloader. One of those that you can find on the shelf at any sporting goods store for like 150-200 bucks. It is EXTREMELY difficult to load any of the sabots that you need to load into a sleeve before shoving it down the barrel. Like, I have to use almost all of my strength to get it down into the barrel. When I push it completely through and it comes out the other side the plastic sleeve has some tearing on it, as it was clearly rubbing against the rifling of the barrel. A powerbelt loads in just fine, at least I think. It is still tough to get down the barrel but I can do it in one motion, where as with the sleeved sabots it takes every ounce of effort that I’ve got. I have not shot this weapon as I am worried that it would explode. Has anyone else come across this issue or know what could be going on? Is it safe to fire the powerbelts? I would never try and fire the sleeved sabots with how tough those go in so don’t worry about that. I just am hoping to get this figured out as muzzleloader opened last Saturday!

    Hey there.

    I use two types of sabots in my mz.

    They’re both Barnes copper.
    One is the MZ.
    It is a super tight fit in my barrel. I’ll load this round first. You cannot shove a second down the barrel after a shot.

    Any second third or maybe 4th shot i use…T-EZ

    They’re a hair smaller than the MZ.

    Both sabots require two hands on the ram rod. One to push and one to keep the rod straight so you don’t break it.

    Powerbelts are like throwing a hotdog down a hallway.
    These tight loading sabots allow more pressure to be created.
    When shot, the sound is entirely different than a loose bullet.

    Ka POW!

    I absolutely love my tight loading sabots. Wouldn’t trade then for anything.

    I do lather a small amount of borebutter on the sabot jacket for easier loading.

    For my reload containers I keep a small baggie attached to each one, in the baggie i have a cleaning patch that has bore butter Rubbed into the patch. It isn’t necessary to use it, but can make loading easier.

    My rifling does scratch the sabot jacket. This is ok by me. I get phenomenal grouping and have ballistics testing out to 300yds. I run a scope.

    My smokepole is my only deer rifle unless I’m busting brush on a deer drive, then I’ll grab the shotgun.

    Barnes MZ & T-EZ
    Don’t break your ram rod )

    pass0047
    Pool4
    Posts: 470
    #1813591

    I second barnes t-ez (blue jacket I believe). Easiest loading sabot I could find in very tight Thompson center. I use it for every shot though. Loose powder makes loading easier for second and third shots( something to try next year. Good luck.

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