Mn House bill 4492

Wish they’d push that grandfather rule to July 1990 And for banning lead I’m all for it. Pretty much shoot everything in the air with bismuth and would love to see it move to fishing. I’m more interested in it moving to slug hunting to encourage more manufacturing of copper rifled slugs since there virtually unavailable. Hate that I can’t feed my kids or prego partner my venison since what you send to the butcher gets mixed with other hunters deer. If no one used lead, It wouldn’t be an issue. I’m sure I’ll get booed off this forum for this opinion but when my kids are at risk “F” you needing to spend a couple extra cents on ammo and weights. If we encourage more manufacturing of non toxic shot/tackle prices will come down. I mean everything is already 8% more expensive what’s a little more

Your kids or preggo wife certainly wont encounter the lead jigs I may lose in the river in a season,let alone free the jigs from the snags they are buried in.Neither will any loon,swan,goose or duck for that matter.You could shoot your deer and personally process it.Putting all the risk on yourself as to whether the meat is safe for your kids,but then you would have nothing to worry about and no one to blame.A random swan resting area used to ban lead tackle,unreal

The only scientific evidence that lead is having a detrimental impact on a particular species is in humans.

Old lead pipes, lead solder, lead paint etc.

The Northeast and Midwest have the biggest challenges as does parts of Canada. See Flint, MI for example.

There is no scientific evidence for banning lead for fishing and hunting. When this exists I will reconsider.

Hey wrote:

There is no scientific evidence for banning lead for fishing and hunting. When this exists I will reconsider.

Not entirely true. They have found lead poisoning in loons, swans, and eagles. It’s rare, but it has occurred. The loons and swans ingest lead off the bottom.

There have been documented instances of eagles at the raptor center with lead poisoning. They pick away at the gut piles of deer that hunters have shot in the fall with lead ammo and ingest lead fragments. The argument against this is that bald eagle population has never been higher, so who cares.

I’m not for or against the ban on lead, I’m just stating the reason for it.

FinickyFish wrote:

Wish they’d push that grandfather rule to July 1990 And for banning lead I’m all for it. Pretty much shoot everything in the air with bismuth and would love to see it move to fishing. I’m more interested in it moving to slug hunting to encourage more manufacturing of copper rifled slugs since there virtually unavailable. Hate that I can’t feed my kids or prego partner my venison since what you send to the butcher gets mixed with other hunters deer. If no one used lead, It wouldn’t be an issue. I’m sure I’ll get booed off this forum for this opinion but when my kids are at risk “F” you needing to spend a couple extra cents on ammo and weights. If we encourage more manufacturing of non toxic shot/tackle prices will come down. I mean everything is already 8% more expensive what’s a little more

Lol

I’ll make you one hell of a deal.

For every 100 lead jigs I have I’ll trade you for 90 bismuth/tungsten ones since they’re only “a couple cents more”.

Heck I’ll even sweeten the deal to accept 80 alternatives from you for every 100 of mine. According to your numbers you’ll be making a ton of money off me.

————–

I’m not completely against a lead ban, but I need to see evidence that it’s significant detriment for the already growing populations to back it up.

Yes, there is occasionally/rarely collateral damage from lead poisoning in waterfowl with fishing tackle. It happens, but lost fishing tackle is an extremely low risk compared to the hundreds of millions (if not billions) of lead shot bb’s that rightfully caused a lead ban for waterfowl.

This whole bill is about some swans that died a few years ago in a tiny and heavily fished creek in the Twin Cities METRO….which also happens to have swans.

The Girl Scouts (I’m not making that up) brought the issue up to Mr. Fischer. Instead of making a LOCAL ordinance against a known and extremely localized pollution issue, he wants to open the flood gates on a STATE-WIDE lead ban….

Another man-made leading cause of death with swans is powerlines. They run into them occasionally/rarely as well. I’m also guessing they find a windmill here or there too. They also get hit by cars..(gasp)

Those should all be banned too right?

Instead of a lead ban (which would literally cost us hundreds of millions of dollars in replacement tackle) our money would be FAR better off spent on restoring habit instead forcing everyone to replace all of their tackle. I’d be all for an additional 2% tackle tax if it was REALLY spent on things that REALLY matter (habitat construction, habitat restoration, stocking/breeding programs, etc). I’m not a fan of raising taxes, but if I knew where my money is really going, I’d love to see it.

Something that also may interest a lot of people; please do your own research, but lead seems to be our most available domestic product when it comes to fishing weights.

As for your deer meat, either find a reputable butcher or cut them up yourself. Neither are difficult to do. A lack of effort on your end is a pizz-poor reason for a state-wide ban for an extremely localized issue.

gimruis wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Hey wrote:</div>
There is no scientific evidence for banning lead for fishing and hunting. When this exists I will reconsider.

Not entirely true. They have found lead poisoning in loons, swans, and eagles. It’s rare, but it has occurred. The loons and swans ingest lead off the bottom.

There have been documented instances of eagles at the raptor center with lead poisoning. They pick away at the gut piles of deer that hunters have shot in the fall with lead ammo and ingest lead fragments. The argument against this is that bald eagle population has never been higher, so who cares.

I’m not for or against the ban on lead, I’m just stating the reason for it.

I get it. A very small percentage of eagles eat lead and die. It only takes a couple to make the news. But if you look at the overall threat to Eagles lead doesn’t make a dent and is not a threat like pesticides or do I dare say…Wind energy and getting smashed by wind turbines?

Hey wrote:

I get it. A very small percentage of eagles eat lead and die. It only takes a couple to make the news. But if you look at the overall threat to Eagles lead doesn’t make a dent and is not a threat like pesticides or do I dare say…Wind energy and getting smashed by wind turbines?

I agree. It’s minor. Eagle populations as a whole have never been better.

B-man wrote:

Instead of a lead ban (which would literally cost us hundreds of millions of dollars in replacement tackle) our money would be FAR better off spent on restoring habit instead forcing everyone to replace all of their tackle. I’d be all for an additional 2% tackle tax if it was REALLY spent on things that REALLY matter (habitat construction, habitat restoration, stocking/breeding programs, etc). I’m not a fan of raising taxes, but if I knew where my money is really going, I’d love to see it

Well said Bman. I would also go for this.

So the question remains.

Are the wackos the engineers driving the trains or the people lying on the tracks.

I’ll say it first… the engineers.

Thinking out loud here but do these birds/animals actually eat a lead jig or sinker. When I lose one it is usually because it’s snagged. Which means I can’t get it out. If it’s not snagged the likely hood of a bird finding my sinker that randomly lost on the bottom of the lake seams really really small.
Shot gun shells sounds more likely due to them being on land and much more of them. Not blaming just thinking out loud.
Then again I have never seen a dead swan or loon to investigate either.

That would effectively apply to the entire Mississippi Flyway!!!

Much of what will likely happen gets based on perception not science. Look at the wolf hunting or walleye reduction proposal. For years we have been trying to get anglers to contact legislators and get more political. It’s a get what you paid for, avoid any advocacy and live with decisions made without your input.

Isn’t that what fishing advocacies groups that collect money are for…cough cough mnfish..

Ripjiggen wrote:

Thinking out loud here but do these birds/animals actually eat a lead jig or sinker. When I lose one it is usually because it’s snagged. Which means I can’t get it out. If it’s not snagged the likely hood of a bird finding my sinker that randomly lost on the bottom of the lake seams really really small.
Shot gun shells sounds more likely due to them being on land and much more of them. Not blaming just thinking out loud.
Then again I have never seen a dead swan or loon to investigate either.

The lead sinker or jig that you lost because of a snag isn’t stuck there forever. Eventually it probably ends up on the bottom and degrades. Would a loon or swan eat it if its still snagged? I highly doubt that. But every bird needs grit for their gizzard on a daily basis. Loons, swans, and other waterfowl get their grit from the bottom. This is how they can pick up a piece of lead and get lead poisoning. It seems unlikely to me too, but it does happen. Its really no different than a wild turkey or a pheasant on land when they seek out grit every morning, except on land compared to in the water. The odds of this occurring to any bird seems very low to me, in any case but there are documented cases of it, just as there are in eagles. The difference with eagles is that loon populations aren’t at an all time high, whereas the eagle population has never been better. I am not sure how well swan populations are. I see them, but I wouldn’t say I see a lot of them.

Yeah I guess I rarely fish in a foot of water where a swan most likely gets it grit for its gizzard. If I do I most likely get my jig back in that depth when snagged.

This bill should die of lead poisoning.

“Minnesota’s swan reintroduction efforts began in 1966, were expanded in the 1980s, and continued through 2012. The Trumpeter Swan population and breeding range increased slowly at first, but has continued to build to the point where they currently nest throughout much of Minnesota. A statewide Trumpeter Swan survey was conducted in 2015, and the breeding population was estimated to be more than 17,000 individuals (Herwig and Giudice 2015).”

Below is a link to our DNR’s timeline with today’s population @ 30,000.

Link to 30,000 Swans

gimruis wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Ripjiggen wrote:</div>
Thinking out loud here but do these birds/animals actually eat a lead jig or sinker. When I lose one it is usually because it’s snagged. Which means I can’t get it out. If it’s not snagged the likely hood of a bird finding my sinker that randomly lost on the bottom of the lake seams really really small.
Shot gun shells sounds more likely due to them being on land and much more of them. Not blaming just thinking out loud.
Then again I have never seen a dead swan or loon to investigate either.

The lead sinker or jig that you lost because of a snag isn’t stuck there forever. Eventually it probably ends up on the bottom and degrades. Would a loon or swan eat it if its still snagged? I highly doubt that. But every bird needs grit for their gizzard on a daily basis. Loons, swans, and other waterfowl get their grit from the bottom. This is how they can pick up a piece of lead and get lead poisoning. It seems unlikely to me too, but it does happen. Its really no different than a wild turkey or a pheasant on land when they seek out grit every morning, except on land compared to in the water. The odds of this occurring to any bird seems very low to me, in any case but there are documented cases of it, just as there are in eagles. The difference with eagles is that loon populations aren’t at an all time high, whereas the eagle population has never been better. I am not sure how well swan populations are. I see them, but I wouldn’t say I see a lot of them.

Organic lead in shot and sinkers doesn’t degrade in water. If so, that would be a scary deal. It has to actually be ingested whole. Lead solder , pipes, lead paint etc, have other chemical interactions that are different and I’m not going to bore you with chemical interactions.

Lead sinker and shot in lakes and rivers. You gotta eat it whole like a rock.

Truly don’t care one way or the other on the lead deal, as I barely fish open water and 3/4 of my ice stuff has already been switched to tungsten. I do wonder though why in an industry that has been so thoroughly reinvented over the last few decades by technological advance in the areas of electronics, boat tech, rod and reel improvements and even just the application of science based ideas to techniques, so little attention has been paid to terminal tackle. I mean yeah I know new lures and gimmicks come out every year but at the end of the day it’s a hunk of metal, usually lead, of varying shape, with some paint, attached to a hook, and some kind of bait or plastic. Piece of plastic or wood, with some hooks and weight with a varying pattern and lip to give it action. Obviously it works, but I always wonder (usually when it’s not) why there hasn’t been the “revolution” in tackle we’ve seen elsewhere. I mean there’s gotta be something else to try right? Maybe getting away from lead would open up a new avenue for innovation that’s being overlooked?

^^^dude haven’t you seen the banjo minnow. Revolutionary…

“Organic lead in shot and sinkers doesn’t degrade in water. If so, that would be a scary deal. It has to actually be ingested whole. Lead solder , pipes, lead paint etc, have other chemical interactions that are different and I’m not going to bore you with chemical interactions.
Lead sinker and shot in lakes and rivers. You gotta eat it whole like a rock.”

So are you saying if I ate paint chips as a kid it’s different than if I popped a few split shot sinkers for fun?

I prefer the flying lure personally

Ripjiggen wrote:

^^^dude haven’t you seen the banjo minnow. Revolutionary…

“Organic lead in shot and sinkers doesn’t degrade in water. If so, that would be a scary deal. It has to actually be ingested whole. Lead solder , pipes, lead paint etc, have other chemical interactions that are different and I’m not going to bore you with chemical interactions.
Lead sinker and shot in lakes and rivers. You gotta eat it whole like a rock.”

So are you saying if I ate paint chips as a kid it’s different than if I popped a few split shot sinkers for fun?

Yep way different. You can breath in fine particulates of lead paint and ingest the same in water.

Your 10th generation descendants could pick up your sinker from today without any worry