Busted for possession of (lake) weed – need attorney/legal help

  • David
    Posts: 13
    #1465213

    Here are a couple other examples of government out of control with respect to invasive species laws (in this case, Michigan):

    http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/mark-baker/


    Mike Adams joins Robert Scott Bell to discuss the Natural News Exclusive on how the Michigan Department of Natural Resources has, in total violation of the Fourth Amendment, conducted two armed raids on pig farmers in that state, one in Kalkaska County at Fife Lake and another in Cheboygan County. Staging raids involving six vehicles and ten armed men, DNA conducted unconstitutional, illegal and arguably criminal armed raids on these two farms with the intent of shooting all the farmers’ pigs under a bizarre new “Invasive Species Order” (ISO) that has suddenly declared traditional livestock to be an invasive species.

    deertracker
    Posts: 8967
    #1465216

    If you are taking the content of a website with “police state” in it as truth, Ill bite my tongue and bow out of this thread.
    DT

    David
    Posts: 13
    #1465229

    If you are taking the content of a website with “police state” in it as truth, Ill bite my tongue and bow out of this thread.
    DT

    Here are some other sources. Hopefully they span the political spectrum enough to show that it isn’t a left or right issue. I’m not trying to prove a point with fictional information, so if you find something indicating this isn’t true, please let me know.

    http://modernfarmer.com/2014/02/state-michigan-vs-pigs-5-court-cases/
    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2012/08/31/160394513/battle-over-michigans-new-swine-rules-goes-hog-wild
    http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/family-farm-in-michigan-threatened-with-armed-enforcement-from-dnr-for-raising-heritage-pigs/
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/17/1084093/-Romney-s-Michigan-Goes-Hog-Wild-as-DNR-Orders-Killing-of-Hogs-Piglets#

    Mike W
    MN/Anoka/Ham lake
    Posts: 13194
    #1465240

    If you have to lie to prove your point…….
    DT

    Okay just tell them you cleaned the trailer and you dont think those are from your trailer. Make them prove that they are. While they are at it prove that those are aquatic vegetation. Got to imagine by the time those weeds hit the court room they may look like a lot of different things. From what I have learned about being in court its not so much right or wrong but who wants to spend the most time and money. Maybe you will get lucky and find a judge that doesnt want to waste their time chasing a $130 ticket and throw this out.

    On the other hand I sure hope you dont find a judge that wants to throw your butt in the clink for 90 days for lake weeds. They dont even do they for reel weed.

    Have you hired a attorney yet to help you with this?

    David
    Posts: 13
    #1465241

    On the other hand I sure hope you dont find a judge that wants to throw your butt in the clink for 90 days for lake weeds. They dont even do they for reel weed.

    I sure hope so too! -)

    Have you hired a attorney yet to help you with this?

    No, I am still looking for someone to help me.

    deertracker
    Posts: 8967
    #1465246

    Just wondering as I have never seen a roadside check for invasives. Were you by your trailer when the check was done or did you have to wait in your vehicle?
    DT

    David
    Posts: 13
    #1465251

    Just wondering as I have never seen a roadside check for invasives. Were you by your trailer when the check was done or did you have to wait in your vehicle?
    DT

    deertracker – They came to my window and told me that they would be checking my boat and trailer. Shortly thereafter, they asked me to step out of the vehicle and go with them behind the boat, because they said they found a significant amount of weeds. When we were behind the boat motor, they pointed somewhere under the trailer where they saw weeds. I saw nothing. I was looking for an armful of weeds based on what they were describing. I told them I didn’t see what they were pointing at. They described where they saw them and then I saw what they were talking about. It was about a 4 inch strand that was about the diameter of a twist tie on a bag of bread, hanging off one of the axles. This is when I knew this wasn’t going to end well, because that amount was significant to them and I could barely see it even after they pointed it out a few times. Remember, this is a 24 foot long pontoon boat and we are looking underneath it, where it is darker, from a distance.

    They then had me go around to the side and pointed out where they saw another strand behind the rear wheel on the port side of the boat trailer. They then said I could return to my vehicle, while they had 2 or 3 officers climb under the boat for 5 to 10 minutes. They gave me the ticket and we discussed that a bit. Next, they told me that I should remove the rest of the weeds before going into Wisconsin. Surprised, I asked them if they had not removed the weeds they found. They said they had only removed a sample of them. I told them that I’d need to go back and remove the weeds. They then told me to wait while they talked to the other officers. They came back and said that the other officers had removed all the weeds, not just a sample. I asked to see the weeds. I exited the vehicle again and walked over by their vehicles. One officer went into one of their vehicles and removed the clear bag with the weeds that fit in the palm of her hand. I took a picture and that is the picture that is in my original post in this thread. I had a discussion with them about what constitutes a significant amount of weeds and then got back in my vehicle and left.

    Thanks,
    David

    hl&sinker
    Inactive
    north fowl
    Posts: 605
    #1465301

    This system we have is geered towards criminalizing people in order to control.
    Is this a democracy by product? This is going the way of the war on drugs campaign .

    David I support what your doing. I wish I knew how to help you out, I just don’t know what I can do.
    if you decide taking it past pretrial, not I’m pushing for this, this is a choice that you must make, I’ll be in the court room hopefully with others.

    desperado
    Posts: 3010
    #1465310

    This system we have is geered towards criminalizing people in order to control.

    We have a BINGO

    Buzz
    Minneapolis MN
    Posts: 1772
    #1465314

    David, I again renew my invitation to help you get more involved with the MN legislature. They created these laws and penalties. Not the DNR, not the Conservation Officers. The argument I would make to the legislature would be that while road side checks might be legal and might result in finding violations, they are a poor use of resources that could be better spent on more serious offenses. The likelihood of the court system to declare these checks as being unconstitutional is unlikely. While I like most find falling on my sword nearly impossible, the passion you feel about this could be directed toward preventing more penalties and maybe curtailing some.

    David
    Posts: 13
    #1465335

    This system we have is geered towards criminalizing people in order to control.
    Is this a democracy by product? This is going the way of the war on drugs campaign .

    David I support what your doing. I wish I knew how to help you out, I just don’t know what I can do.
    if you decide taking it past pretrial, not I’m pushing for this, this is a choice that you must make, I’ll be in the court room hopefully with others.

    hl&sinker (and desperado) – Thanks for your support. The court case is just one avenue to fight this. It may take some time, but I’ll be trying to organize people together through a website specifically for this purpose. Getting the word out to anyone you know who boats or fishes or is liberty minded is the best you can do at this point.

    Buzz – I believe in a multi-pronged approach. Right now, all my energy and time is being put into the court case. I will turn my attention toward the legislative process afterward.

    We agree that roadside checkpoints are a poor use of resources. Where we disagree is on the legality of them. The MN supreme court has already said they are not constitutional. The court where my case is being heard does not need to declare them as unconstitutional, they just need to recognize the very clear case law from their higher court.

    Thanks for posting.

    David

    Zach H
    Posts: 374
    #1465405

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>hl&sinker wrote:</div>
    This system we have is geered towards criminalizing people in order to control.
    Is this a democracy by product? This is going the way of the war on drugs campaign .

    David I support what your doing. I wish I knew how to help you out, I just don’t know what I can do.
    if you decide taking it past pretrial, not I’m pushing for this, this is a choice that you must make, I’ll be in the court room hopefully with others.

    hl&sinker (and desperado) – Thanks for your support. The court case is just one avenue to fight this. It may take some time, but I’ll be trying to organize people together through a website specifically for this purpose. Getting the word out to anyone you know who boats or fishes or is liberty minded is the best you can do at this point.

    Buzz – I believe in a multi-pronged approach. Right now, all my energy and time is being put into the court case. I will turn my attention toward the legislative process afterward.

    We agree that roadside checkpoints are a poor use of resources. Where we disagree is on the legality of them. The MN supreme court has already said they are not constitutional. The court where my case is being heard does not need to declare them as unconstitutional, they just need to recognize the very clear case law from their higher court.

    Thanks for posting.

    David

    Just think if you took an extra 5 mins to pull these weeds off your pontoon? You would have a bunch of free time instead of trying to go to court to fight this and then organize a group of people to fight these laws. I think these laws are a bit stretched myself, but I still take the time every time I pull my boat out and lay on my back under my trailer to make sure my boat is free of all weeds. I find it a bit ironic that you have all the time to go to court and fight this but not much time to play by the rules.

    WinnebagoViking
    Inactive
    Posts: 420
    #1465587

    The MN supreme court has already said they are not constitutional. The court where my case is being heard does not need to declare them as unconstitutional, they just need to recognize the very clear case law from their higher court.

    Actually, you do need to ask the Court to declare these stops to enforce this law unconstitutional. While the similarities to DUI checkpoints are analogous, they are not identical. Since you are not disputing the evidence nor the law but means by which the law is enforced, you have the burden to argue the means of enforcement are a violation of Constitutional principles. The Supreme Courts of MN and the U.S. have established a precedent test for such instances which you will need to demonstrate applies to this case. That test is known as the Brown balancing test which was established in the case Brown v. Texas: 1) is a ‘stop’ considered a ‘seizure’ under the 4th amendment (yes, in all cases); 2) does the gravity of public concerns justified the seizure. In other words, is there a compelling govt interest? (as you point out, if DUI is not sufficient interest, then AIS probably isn’t either.); 3) how far an intrusion, or inconvenience, a checkpoint presented to the normal, law-abiding motorist is allowable to advance the govt interest.

    With that said….You will not be able to represent yourself and win this argument. You must have a professional. A good one. You might find it useful to contact the MN ACLU.

    David
    Posts: 13
    #1465743

    Actually, you do need to ask the Court to declare these stops to enforce this law unconstitutional. While the similarities to DUI checkpoints are analogous, they are not identical. Since you are not disputing the evidence nor the law but means by which the law is enforced, you have the burden to argue the means of enforcement are a violation of Constitutional principles. The Supreme Courts of MN and the U.S. have established a precedent test for such instances which you will need to demonstrate applies to this case. That test is known as the Brown balancing test which was established in the case Brown v. Texas: 1) is a ‘stop’ considered a ‘seizure’ under the 4th amendment (yes, in all cases); 2) does the gravity of public concerns justified the seizure. In other words, is there a compelling govt interest? (as you point out, if DUI is not sufficient interest, then AIS probably isn’t either.); 3) how far an intrusion, or inconvenience, a checkpoint presented to the normal, law-abiding motorist is allowable to advance the govt interest.

    With that said….You will not be able to represent yourself and win this argument. You must have a professional. A good one. You might find it useful to contact the MN ACLU.

    I think it is debatable whether the DWI checkpoint case is not close enough for the lower court to go with that ruling on its face. Time will tell.

    I am disputing the law, not just how it is enforced.

    You are correct about the balancing test and those are points I’m prepared to argue, but I’m not including all details in all posts on this subject, both for brevity and, to some degree, strategy. -)

    I guess we disagree about whether a person can represent themselves (in county court). Not that I wouldn’t welcome someone representing all of us in this matter and/or helping me. That’s half the reason for me posting here in the first place.

    Contacting the MN ACLU is a good idea. I’ve already done that, however, and as of now, haven’t heard back from them.

    What I can tell you is that the MN Supreme Court was *very* clear about their stance on roadside checkpoints being unconstitutional, because there is no individualized suspicion of the people being stopped. They have referred back to this key point in cases since then and emphasized again that they believe strongly in this key point. In short, they weight the rights of a person much higher than SCOTUS does, when compared to the government’s interest, in the case of checkpoints, thus the balance goes the other way.

    A lower court can either go with the logic of the higher court or it can ignore it. If it ignores it, that’s one reason we have appeals.

    It is a pet peeve (that’s probably putting it lightly) of mine when government officials (if elected, swearing to uphold the constitution) know darn well that something is unconstitutional, yet they put it in place anyway, forcing it to finally make its way through the court system, harming people in the meantime. These officials are not accountable for these actions. That is a problem and it has led to the continued erosion of our rights, along with poor case law that has found its rationalization in mental gymnastics, such that very plain concepts from the 18th century (and well before) are now monkeybuttized into something completely unrecognizable for what they were.

    That last rant wasn’t directed at you, WinnebagoViking. Sometimes you just have to vent. -) I appreciate you taking the time to post.

    Thanks,
    David

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