Bowed basement wall

  • walleyesforme
    Posts: 77
    #2263696

    Checking here to see if any of you could offer advice or know anyone that can repair a bowing basement wall? Here’s a little background info. Our house was built in 2007 and we bought it in 2010. It was built by someone that was going to turn around and sell it but in 2008 the market crashed and the bank took it back so we basically got a new never lived in house for a heck of a deal. When we bought it about a 15 foot section of one of the walls was bowed in about 2 inches. It is a wood basement. Don’t know lots about them but from what I’ve gathered it’s wood sandwiching some kind of foam and wrapped up in a thick rubber membrane. Our realtor told us it wouldn’t be a huge deal if we braced it up and stopped it from getting worse. Being young and dumb I figured eh what could possibly happen and didn’t do anything as I had what seemed to me way more important things to do at the time. In 2015 it started getting way worse so I put in 5 pieces of I beam from the concrete floor up to the floor joists to hold the wall. At this point it’s now bowed in 5 inches. It’s really been bothering me lately and I’m getting sick of looking at it and it messed up the slope of that part of the area around the basement outside which happens to be where our sidewalk to the front door is. I got a quote from one of the big name contractors that does that kind of stuff and they wanted an insane amount of money to fix it. It seemed like way to much to me. Has anyone dealt with something like this before or know anyone that has? Anyone know a smaller guy that might do stuff like this on the side? I’m almost tempted to attempt fixing it myself as it doesn’t seem like it could be to hard but then I think what if something happens it could go really bad in a hurry. Any help or advise is much appreciated!

    Eelpoutguy
    Farmington, Outing
    Posts: 9914
    #2263700

    The big named contractors are big because they do it correctly.

    Bearcat89
    North branch, mn
    Posts: 17995
    #2263701

    Pay some one to do it the right way.

    Brian Bezanson
    Posts: 100
    #2263705

    You are not going to be able to push the wall back in place from the inside.
    Figure the side of the building will have to be excavated down to the footings at a minimium. The source causing the bow needs to be discovered. Then it will likely start costing you real money. Hire a professional. I repeat. Hire a pro.
    Frankly I’d be seeking serious legal help. I’m not legal help but I have spent 40 years in the commercial and residential const business.
    Good luck.

    walleyesforme
    Posts: 77
    #2263706

    Thanks for the quick replies guys. That’s kind of the route I’m leaning towards but it’s a tough one to swallow with how much they want. There’s only one place around here that really advertises offering that type of service so it would be nice to have something to compare it to (we are from the iron range area). They wanted over $30k to fix it. I thought that seemed kinda steep but maybe not?

    walleyesforme
    Posts: 77
    #2263707

    You are not going to be able to push the wall back in place from the inside.
    Figure the side of the building will have to be excavated down to the footings at a minimium. The source causing the bow needs to be discovered. Then it will likely start costing you real money. Hire a professional. I repeat. Hire a pro.
    Frankly I’d be seeking serious legal help. I’m not legal help but I have spent 40 years in the commercial and residential const business.
    Good luck.

    Thanks for the advice. I don’t think there’s anything we can really do legally. We bought the house knowing the wall was an issue. When we bought it we were told that it was most likely from being back filled with clay and from the crane being to close when the house was set.

    walleyesforme
    Posts: 77
    #2263708

    I guess another question is if it’s not moving anymore is it still a big deal or is it just an eye sore?

    Eric
    Posts: 20
    #2263709

    To think that fixing this problem need not be expensive would be a fantasy, I’m sorry to say. I have no familiarity with wood basement walls, but if in fact it’s possible for such a wall design to function properly in the first place, the characteristics of your soils and drainage will still be a huge part of whether or not such a problem as yours becomes an issue.

    Just to outline some general aspects to keep in mind, backfill alongside basement walls of residential structures is notoriously a problem because few residential builders know anything about soils, and because backfilling properly requires time and effort, which are two items that are in short supply when building houses. Poorly-compacted backfill has an amplified ability to take on water, and loose, saturated soils exert far more pressure against a wall than well-compacted soil for a number of reasons which I won’t try to describe here.

    Now, again, not being familiar with this kind of basement wall, I won’t claim to know what needs to be done in your case, but going with the assumption that such a wall can, under ideal conditions, resist lateral earth pressure, I am thinking that a proper repair will likely require that something be done to reduce that pressure.

    Standard ways of accomplishing this involve the use of free-draining material as backfill. This would be a clean sand or clean sand-and-gravel (which I won’t define right now, but which an expert in soils can help you with). Compacting that soil to an adequate degree is important (but doing this without over-stressing what seems to be a very weak wall to begin with), and there should be a provision for providing active removal of water that accumulates at the bottom of the backfill (typically this would be a standard drain-and-sump system).

    You can probably visualize that replacing backfill with a material that exerts less lateral pressure is going to be expensive no matter who does it. The backfill will need to be removed in any case, just to push the bow out of the wall.

    With backfill and drainage issues solved, you can virtually eliminate water entry into the backfill by diverting roof water well away from the house, providing an effective slope of the ground surface away from the basement walls, and even waterproofing the ground surface. A good way to waterproof the surface is to mix powdered bentonite into layer of soil that’s a few inches thick, at some minor depth below the ground surface so that you can still have a topsoil for turf or garden. Lots of residential structures have improperly-sloped grades adjacent to them, and depending how badly the contractor screwed up the overall site grading, fixing this can involve a lot more than just adding material next to the structure. Waterproofing the soil surface can be done yourself, with a rototiller and some elbow grease (but this is only after you’ve hired someone to identify and solve whatever the other issues are). Very few earthwork contractors will have any experience waterproofing the soil surface and you’d be lucky to find one who even knows this is “a thing”. I can no longer remember the proper ratio of powdered bentonite to soil, but an experienced geotechnical engineer will know this, or be able to look it up.

    So for starters, it would be best to hire a geotechnical engineering firm. That sounds like it will be expensive but it will actually be the cheapest part of the entire operation, by far, and it may even save you from wasting money on the wrong solution performed by some guy who thinks he understands the whole problem but due to Dunning-Kruger, does not. This might even be worth the attention of a structural engineer too, though if these wooden walls are common in your neck of the woods, it may be that some local building contractors already have experience with any structural fixes that are known to work.

    It may turn out that reinforcing the wall in its currently deformed condition would be a suitable plan of action, but again, you need to get some experts involved just to figure this out.

    Bearcat89
    North branch, mn
    Posts: 17995
    #2263711

    I guess another question is if it’s not moving anymore is it still a big deal or is it just an eye sore?

    Considering it went from a 2 inch bow to a 5 inch bow, I’d say it’s a major issue. No way I’d let that go unaddressed.

    I’m trying to picture this wood framed basement. There is no cmu walls no block foundation ? Just wood ? That sounds like a disaster in its self. If it’s cmu then they will have to drill through the walls tie back to the soil, pump grout and anchor into it. Then tie in wall plates and put tension on them as they go back. If it’s just wood framing then it’ll all have to be excavated

    Dutchboy
    Central Mn.
    Posts: 16113
    #2263716

    Check, double check, triple check for insurance the contractor carries before they touch it.

    The good news is you should have some equity built up from owning it. The bad news is it will take most that to fix it.

    Do it right and forget about it. Good luck.

    slough
    Posts: 477
    #2263717

    Know little about construction but 30k to fix something like that doesn’t seem bad at all.

    deertracker
    Posts: 8971
    #2263719

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>walleyesforme wrote:</div>
    I guess another question is if it’s not moving anymore is it still a big deal or is it just an eye sore?

    Considering it went from a 2 inch bow to a 5 inch bow, I’d say it’s a major issue. No way I’d let that go unaddressed.

    I’m trying to picture this wood framed basement. There is no cmu walls no block foundation ? Just wood ? That sounds like a disaster in its self. If it’s cmu then they will have to drill through the walls tie back to the soil, pump grout and anchor into it. Then tie in wall plates and put tension on them as they go back. If it’s just wood framing then it’ll all have to be excavated

    My last house had an all wood basement. No block at all. Was the warmest and driest basement I have ever had. House was 30 years old and looked great. I was leery of it when I bought it on foreclosure but ended up good.
    DT

    gregory
    Red wing,mn
    Posts: 1588
    #2263721

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>walleyesforme wrote:</div>
    I guess another question is if it’s not moving anymore is it still a big deal or is it just an eye sore?

    Considering it went from a 2 inch bow to a 5 inch bow, I’d say it’s a major issue. No way I’d let that go unaddressed.

    I’m trying to picture this wood framed basement. There is no cmu walls no block foundation ? Just wood ? That sounds like a disaster in its self. If it’s cmu then they will have to drill through the walls tie back to the soil, pump grout and anchor into it. Then tie in wall plates and put tension on them as they go back. If it’s just wood framing then it’ll all have to be excavated

    There’s no footings on these wood basements, basically compacted river rock and the wall sections set on rock and basement floor poured to tie walls in. There was a place in Prescott i believe that used to manufacture and install them. Woodmasters I believe the company name was or is still. I’ve installed a few for a contractor years ago, and was never a believer in them.
    Imo 30k to repair is actually reasonable. Hopefully they’re excavating it out and installing a block wall. Or laying one up on the outside of the wood one.

    Bearcat89
    North branch, mn
    Posts: 17995
    #2263722

    Underground wood framing is about the worst design scenario I have heard of. Especially in our area.

    gregory
    Red wing,mn
    Posts: 1588
    #2263726

    Underground wood framing is about the worst design scenario I have heard of. Especially in our area.

    Yup, they had lifespan rating also, don’t remember but I was always like why would you build your house on something that had a lifespan, when concrete is indefinitely.

    buckybadger
    Upper Midwest
    Posts: 7323
    #2263727

    No idea what to tell you without seeing it in person, other than it’s going to have to be fixed and it’s not going to be cheap.

    I have seen too many times where homes are not backfilled correctly and any schumck with equipment attempts to backfill homes leading to issues. I watched a ~900K (in pre covid dollars) home not too far away on the river get built and to save a bit of $$$ the owner who was trying to be the general decided he’d backfill it himself. Needless to say they had issues from day 1 including water near the foundation and a bulging wall on their walkout.

    Karl Hungus
    Carver County, Minnesota
    Posts: 156
    #2263732

    Lots of good advice here. I agree that I’d be looking into legal action 1st, before proceeding with any more fixes or repairs. Don’t assume your not entitled to any action against the seller, even if it’s a bank that took the property over. Playing lawyer, which I’m not, I could see where you might have hurt your chances for financial help by adding in the reinforcemnet. I could see this as showing that you were aware of the problem and didn’t address it at that time. Just saying… Regardless, the final solution is bite the bullett and do it right. Shortcuts are usually a recipie for disaster. Don’t hire “XYZ Excavating” just to save a buck (my apologies if that’s an actual business)! I also worked commercial construction all my life and this 99% sounds like a backfill issue that has blown into a disastrous problem. Good luck…keep us posted on your situation.

    CaptainMusky
    Posts: 19641
    #2263733

    Wood basement walls would terrify me. I am going to have nightmares just thinking about this.

    Ralph Wiggum
    Maple Grove, MN
    Posts: 11704
    #2263734

    Our realtor told us it wouldn’t be a huge deal if we braced it up and stopped it from getting worse.

    Anything for a commission.

    Bearcat89
    North branch, mn
    Posts: 17995
    #2263738

    No idea what to tell you without seeing it in person, other than it’s going to have to be fixed and it’s not going to be cheap.

    I have seen too many times where homes are not backfilled correctly and any schumck with equipment attempts to backfill homes leading to issues. I watched a ~900K (in pre covid dollars) home not too far away on the river get built and to save a bit of $$$ the owner who was trying to be the general decided he’d backfill it himself. Needless to say they had issues from day 1 including water near the foundation and a bulging wall on their walkout.

    If they built a 900k house near the river and it’s not sitting on poured walls then the engineer should be slapped.

    Eelpoutguy
    Farmington, Outing
    Posts: 9914
    #2263739

    If it’s soil related (and the burden of proof is on you) I would not waste a $.01 on an attorney because soil condition(s) are not covered by insurance.

    If you hire a “Big Name” contractor to repair it they will do it the correct way because once they touch it it is now their issue.
    If they repair it and it fails they are on the hook.

    Let’s say you have an outboard that you take to someone’s garage down the block and he has it for a couple weeks, throws a bunch of parts in it and charges you a few hundred and it still doesn’t run well.
    You take it to a guy like Sheldon, He looks at it, pulls out a screw driver and twists a screw. Now the motor is running like a swiss watch.
    He says that’ll be $500 (he wouldn’t do that but just go with me on this) you say “it only took you 30 seconds” he said you’re not paying me for the 30 seconds, you’re paying me for the 30 years it took my to learn how to do that.

    Bearcat89
    North branch, mn
    Posts: 17995
    #2263740

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>walleyesforme wrote:</div>
    Our realtor told us it wouldn’t be a huge deal if we braced it up and stopped it from getting worse.

    Anything for a commission.

    Yup. The realtor with 0 experience in the industry probably shouldn’t be telling you how to address structural issues. Red flag

    Brian Bezanson
    Posts: 100
    #2263750

    Ground contact treated wood foundation walls on a graded granular bed, as described by Eric, was gaining popularity 40 or so years ago. I never did an install or framed on top of one.
    I have seen a CMU wall bow like that. It was next door to a place I was the framing / exterior finish contractor. Developer had his other sub build that one. A big 2 story walkout colonial. When the Parade of Homes happened the public walked past the cribbing and house moving beams holding the place up and across the space excavated for front wall access on a walkway. Basement was laid up in the winter. Walkout wall and cap framed & heat thrown in the basement. Backfill was heavy saturated frozen clay. Text book FUBAR, until it isnt.
    Insulated Concrete Forms would be how I would have built my retirement home basement, if it had a basement. Instead it is S on G with infloor heat.

    supercat
    Eau Claire, WI
    Posts: 1265
    #2263753

    If it’s soil related (and the burden of proof is on you) I would not waste a $.01 on an attorney because soil condition(s) are not covered by insurance.

    If you hire a “Big Name” contractor to repair it they will do it the correct way because once they touch it it is now their issue.
    If they repair it and it fails they are on the hook.

    X2

    Wood foundations are very common in Canada and I have seen many in the midwest. When using 2.5 pcf rated material it will long outlast the home that sits on it. The problem with your wall is exactly in the prep of drainage and sloping of the site. Find a contractor that specializes in this and get it fixed. I have seen many concrete walls do the same thing.

    buckybadger
    Upper Midwest
    Posts: 7323
    #2263757

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>buckybadger wrote:</div>
    No idea what to tell you without seeing it in person, other than it’s going to have to be fixed and it’s not going to be cheap.

    I have seen too many times where homes are not backfilled correctly and any schumck with equipment attempts to backfill homes leading to issues. I watched a ~900K (in pre covid dollars) home not too far away on the river get built and to save a bit of $$$ the owner who was trying to be the general decided he’d backfill it himself. Needless to say they had issues from day 1 including water near the foundation and a bulging wall on their walkout.

    If they built a 900k house near the river and it’s not sitting on poured walls then the engineer should be slapped.

    ICF

    You still have to backfill correctly, regardless of the type of foundation

    tswoboda
    Posts: 7821
    #2263758

    Just out of curiosity I just checked my neighborhood and 9 of the 12 homes (not mine) are on wood foundations, the other 3 are poured (mine) or icf. These homes were all built in the same vintage as the OP, 2006-2017, and our underlying soil is basically a gravel pit. None of the neighbors are having any issues that I’ve heard of.

    Bearcat89
    North branch, mn
    Posts: 17995
    #2263777

    ICF

    You still have to backfill correctly, regardless of the type of foundation
    [/quote]

    Well that’s a duh, but a poured wall won’t ever buldge.
    No way I’d choose ICF or poured along the river. But that’s me personally. After years of cutting it all out, I’ve seen some stuff.

    supercat
    Eau Claire, WI
    Posts: 1265
    #2263780

    Well that’s a duh, but a poured wall won’t ever buldge.

    That is an incorrect statement. Not trying to start an argument but I have seen concrete walls bulge. It all falls back on an error sometime during the process.

    walleyesforme
    Posts: 77
    #2263781

    Thanks everyone. You pretty much confirmed what I’ve been thinking. As far as legal action I’m sure theres none as the house was steeply discounted because of that. The place that came to look at it said I have several options. One being installing I beams like I did except they would be engineered and stuff like that. Another was some kind of geo anchors where they burry a plate outside and drill through the wall and anchor it to that and the third most expensive expensive one was excavating it and pushing it back out. Luckily from what I understand the wood foundation is much more forgiving and easier to fix that block or poured walls. I just wish there were a few other places around to compare prices. It would be nice if I could get a couple more years out of my temporary fix to save up some to cushion the huge expense of getting it fixed correctly. It’s stayed the same since I put the I beams in but for some reason it’s really been bothering me lately and I can’t stop thinking about it.

    grubson
    Harris, Somewhere in VNP
    Posts: 1308
    #2263787

    Underground wood framing is about the worst design scenario I have heard of. Especially in our area.

    I’m not a builder, but my dad builds wood framed basements. He built his house in 1985 and the basement is dry and issue free.
    I think if they’re done right they can be good.

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