That's a big fish! It must be an old one!

  • Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59944
    #1850910

    Maybe, maybe not says the WI DNR and this has been talked about with flatheads over the years as well.

    Fish, like people, grow at different rates. Their age can’t always be determined just by looking at their size. So instead, fisheries biologists can take a cross-section to help determine their age (yes, just like a forester might count the rings in a tree!).

    A fall 2018 survey of yellow perch in Green Bay showed a 13-inch fish estimated from a cross-section of a fin ray at 4 years, while a 14-inch fish from the same survey was estimated at 11 years! That’s pretty impressive as it is uncommon for a perch to live beyond age 6 in Green Bay.

    Fisheries staff often get asked if they can tell how old a fish is. This example shows that there can be quite a bit of variability in ages for large fish.

    Attachments:
    1. WI-DNR-2.jpg

    2. WI-DNR-3.jpg

    3. WI-DNR-1.jpg

    bigpike
    Posts: 6259
    #1850933

    The Mnr stopped in by us and aged fish that was getting cleaned on Lake Nipigon Ontario. He basically said Northern over 40″ are in the 35-40 years of age range (we weren’t cleaning 40″ fish but some “eaters”). That blew me away. Slow growth rates like that make me respect a beautiful 20 pounds of pure pike out of those waters.

    glenn57
    cold spring mn
    Posts: 10520
    #1850936

    If there any where near as accurate with fish as a black bear I wouldn’t believe a word of it.

    Not trying to cause I rukus just saying.

    Joe Scegura
    Alexandria MN
    Posts: 2752
    #1850958

    He basically said Northern over 40″ are in the 35-40 years of age range

    IMO I think this guy was trying to scare people. I’m sure it’s possible for a pike to live that long but it is certainly not the norm. If you look up growth charts for Canada, you will see 20 yrs for a 40″ Pike is rather common. 20yrs is still a long time and as you stated it still deserves a lot of respect.

    That said, I’d prefer if CO’s would spread accurate info instead of making things up. We’ve had the same thing happen here in Central MN. It seems the taller the tail the faster the lie spreads. I’m not sure why someone in such an influential role would do this but all I can do is hope it was a mistake and not intentional.

    As for BK’s post I think that’s pretty cool. I had no idea fish in the same body of water could vary so much in age. Thanks for posting!

    mplspug
    Palmetto, Florida
    Posts: 25025
    #1850967

    How does that scare people?

    bigpike
    Posts: 6259
    #1850969

    He pulled out a piece of the fish and basically counted rings on it just like a tree. Every water way is different and the fishes growth rate along with it. 99.9 % of the mnr could give a crap about pike so I dont believe they have an agenda, to them they are more like carp to us…

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1850970

    I think there’s a pretty big difference in growth rates between pike in those cold Canadian Shield waters and the waters around Alex, Joe. I’m not sure the CO was completely accurate in the 40″ = 35-40 years however I do feel that those large Canadian pike are much older than you’re giving them credit to be. Who’s Canadian charts? What their source?

    Joe Scegura
    Alexandria MN
    Posts: 2752
    #1851095

    How does that scare people?

    Maybe “scare” was a poor choice in words. I was referring to the guy trying to stretch the truth and tell the anglers a 40″ Pike is way older than it is so the anglers don’t keep them.

    99.9 % of the mnr could give a crap about pike so I dont believe they have an agenda, to them they are more like carp to us…

    That’s not what the resort owners I’ve talked to have said. They expressed great concern for people taking fish over 40″. They claimed in the years they have been running their resorts it was easy to see what harvesting the large pike has done and they really valued em.

    mplspug
    Palmetto, Florida
    Posts: 25025
    #1851097

    Oh, you mean like contaminated or poor meat quality.

    Ralph Wiggum
    Maple Grove, MN
    Posts: 11704
    #1851101

    That said, I’d prefer if CO’s would spread accurate info instead of making things up.

    It’s just like the CO that has my BIL convinced that there are flatheads in our lake in west central MN.

    Joe Scegura
    Alexandria MN
    Posts: 2752
    #1851102

    Oh, you mean like contaminated or poor meat quality.

    Man I’m really striking out here. Sorry Pug, I mean like dang! “These fish are super old… and they will take forever to replace so don’t be an idiot and kill them all.” That’s just a guess as to why he would try to double a fishes estimated age.

    Joe Scegura
    Alexandria MN
    Posts: 2752
    #1851104

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Joe Scegura wrote:</div>
    That said, I’d prefer if CO’s would spread accurate info instead of making things up.

    It’s just like the CO that has my BIL convinced that there are flatheads in our lake in west central MN.

    Or the CO’s in our area telling anglers to kill 12″ walleye because they are 9-12 yrs old. Yet all of the 12″ fish were 15″ the following year and have continued to grow at a normal rate since. I still here people talking about how they need to kill 12″ fish. It’s irritating when those 12″ are now all over 20″… Lies spread like wild fire!

    I wish data like BK showed was easier to obtain on your own. Can a guy just pull a scale off of a fish and count the rings with a microscope? or is it way more complicated than that?

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59944
    #1851105

    It’s just like the CO that has my BIL convinced that there are flatheads in our lake in west central MN.

    Ralf, there were a few lakes in central MN that the DNR released flats in. Lake Ripley in Litchfield was one of them. I don’t recall the rest.

    I don’t know Joe. I thing we would all (including the DNR) be counting scale rings if that was accurate.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59944
    #1851106

    Ralf, there were a few lakes in central MN that the DNR released flats in. Lake Ripley in Litchfield was one of them. I don’t recall the rest.

    Back in the ’70’s.

    Joe Scegura
    Alexandria MN
    Posts: 2752
    #1851110

    I don’t know Joe. I thing we would all (including the DNR) be counting scale rings if that was accurate.

    Got it! I figured it wouldn’t be that easy. I just had to ask being I’ve never looked into it. Thanks

    Ralph Wiggum
    Maple Grove, MN
    Posts: 11704
    #1851124

    Ralf, there were a few lakes in central MN that the DNR released flats in. Lake Ripley in Litchfield was one of them. I don’t recall the rest.

    Yeah, this isn’t one of them. The “baby flatheads” are bullheads.

    gimruis
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 15025
    #1851127

    There is a bone in the fish called an otolith that has rings on it, similar to what a tree looks like when you chop it down. Supposedly the rings are a good indicator of how old the fish is. I’m not sure if its exactly 1 year = 1 ring or how its measured because I’m not a biologist but its the best determining factor on how old a fish may be. The problem with looking at the otolith is that you have to obviously kill the fish (or chop down the tree). When I worked for the DNR as an intern on Mille Lacs in 2006, we found a large dead muskie floating and the biologist in Aitkin asked us to haul it in so he could look at the otolith and make a determination on how old it was.

    sticker
    StillwaterMN/Ottertail county
    Posts: 4418
    #1851133

    I wish data like BK showed was easier to obtain on your own. Can a guy just pull a scale off of a fish and count the rings with a microscope? or is it way more complicated than that?

    Yes Joe, you can pull a scale and count the rings under a microscope. I remember doing that in science class a long long time ago. I did this a couple years ago also. The DNR told me the most accurate scales are from right under the pectoral fin.

    Here is a quote from google
    Counting the number of annuli (rings) on a scale provides the fish age and the spacing between rings is proportional to the growth of the fish.

    Dutchboy
    Central Mn.
    Posts: 16115
    #1851148

    Ya know, there weren’t many of us around in the 70’s

    Rod Bent
    Posts: 360
    #1851156

    I was reading about gar recently, it might have been Infisherman, and it said they really don’t know much about gar. Including how to get an accurate age on them. Still a lot to learn

    mplspug
    Palmetto, Florida
    Posts: 25025
    #1851162

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>mplspug wrote:</div>
    Oh, you mean like contaminated or poor meat quality.

    Man I’m really striking out here. Sorry Pug, I mean like dang! “These fish are super old… and they will take forever to replace so don’t be an idiot and kill them all.” That’s just a guess as to why he would try to double a fishes estimated age.

    doah

    Sorry, sometimes it is best to ignore me rather than try to explain something obvious.

    Rodwork
    Farmington, MN
    Posts: 3799
    #1851171

    Nice clip

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59944
    #1851178

    Here is a quote from google
    Counting the number of annuli (rings) on a scale provides the fish age and the spacing between rings is proportional to the growth of the fish.

    LOL! Thanks Sticker! Wonder why the DNR doesn’t use this…OH Nick!!


    @LCDNRFisheries

    Buffalo Fishhead
    Posts: 298
    #1851293

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>sticker wrote:</div>
    Here is a quote from google
    Counting the number of annuli (rings) on a scale provides the fish age and the spacing between rings is proportional to the growth of the fish.

    LOL! Thanks Sticker! Wonder why the DNR doesn’t use this…OH Nick!!

    @LCDNRFisheries

    Do you know for sure they don’t use scales to age fish?

    Buffalo Fishhead

    MN DNR Fisheries – Lake City
    Lake CIty, MN
    Posts: 158
    #1851639

    Hey guys,

    As mentioned earlier we prefer to use otoliths in our aging for reasons I will explain below.

    I age between 800-1200 fish every year as part of the Large Lake Sampling program for Lake Pepin/Pool 4. It helps use to determine the proportional contribution of a year class to the fishery, understand growth rates, and to help monitor what types of environmental conditions (flood, hot, cold etc) produce good reproduction.

    Fish structure aging began with scales, and for years that was the primary structure used by the MN DNR. They have benefits: they are easy to take and store, are non-lethal, and when pressed into acetate plastic they can be aged on a microfiche reader. The distance between annual rings (annuli) can also be measured to determine annual growth throughout the fish’s life.

    Scales do have some drawbacks though. Annuli are produced when fish go through a period of slower growth often associated with stress and slower metabolism from winter (spawning and summer stress can also produce rings in different species). Because the scales are essentially expendable to the fish if they are in a situation where they are starving etc. they often reabsorb some of the minerals deposited in the scales. This results in the loss of outer annuli when the fish resumes growth (I always describe this as “shaking the etch-a-sketch” to those old enough to understand). This means that scales can be good for young fish, but if a fish is older (and therefore much more likely to have gone through lean times and wiped out some annuli) it has a tendency to under age them. I primarily use scales for largemouth and smallmouth bass that we sample with electrofishing (a non-lethal sampling gear).

    For most species I prefer otoliths. Otolith are functionally the same as our inner ear to a fish and therefore are important in maintaining equilibrium and balance (important things if you live in a three dimensional world and need to catch other things to eat). Due to their importance even when starving fish rarely reabsorb the minerals from otoliths making them a good record for accurate ages especially in old fish (though researchers can even use otoliths to identify and track growth on a daily basis in larval fish). I use otoliths on all the fish I age from our gillnets because we strive to collect as much information as possible from the fish captured in this lethal gear. (Walleye, Sauger, White Bass, Gizzard Shad, crappie, Bluegill, bass, Rock Bass, etc)
    One example of the structure choice making a difference is with White Bass. When we switched to otoliths from scales for White Bass we discovered that rather than the short lived cyclical panfish we thought they were White Bass in Pool 4 can grow to their late teens. Another use would be to compare growth between lakes. I have attached a comparison for walleye growth between Lake Pepin and Rainy Lake that I have posted before.

    To age otoliths I prefer the crack and burn method, where I remove and dry the otoliths then crack them through the center with my thumb and toast them to golden brown over a candle flame. This turns the white surface into bands of black or brown and white kind of like when an egg white goes from clear to white when cooked. The otolith is then mounted toasted side up under a scope and a drop of baby oil gives a smooth surface to focus on (see photo).

    We use the subsample we age to apply age ratios to the total sample and generate age-length-frequency tables (Walleye, Sauger, and White Bass) (attached)

    Other structures that we use occasionally include: cleithra (northern pike), fin spines or rays (Musky, walleye, sturgeon, suckers), and jawbones (Paddlefish)

    As always feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

    Nick

    Attachments:
    1. Pepin-ALF-Walleye-Fall-GN-Pepin-2011-2015-MandF.pdf

    2. Pepin-ALF-White-Bass-Fall-GN-2011-2015.pdf

    3. Pepin-ALF-Sauger-Fall-GN-2011-2015.pdf

    4. Pepin-ALF-Walleye-Fall-GN-Pepin-2011-2015.pdf

    5. Age_8_LI.jpg

    6. Pepin-Walleye-Growth.pdf

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59944
    #1851670

    Thanks for taking the time Nick!

    mplspug
    Palmetto, Florida
    Posts: 25025
    #1851800

    Great information!

    bigpike
    Posts: 6259
    #1851815

    That’s what the scary Mnr guy did his aging by! Pretty cool stuff. And good old Nipigon has old slow growth trophys!

    sticker
    StillwaterMN/Ottertail county
    Posts: 4418
    #1851860

    Great info, thanks much!

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