Ethics of hunting coyotes with hounds

As I was out pheasant hunting last week, I saw a group of people huning coyotes with hounds. I do not have a problem with this, except for the fact that they release their dogs on one section, let the dogs chase over posted land, agricultural land, and anywhere they want to go. Then in most situations, set up on sides of a section and fire from roadways (or ditches) at an animal. If they kill it, they then trespass on whoevers land they killed it on to retrieve the animal.

I understand that everything they do falls into the grey area of the laws. You can legally enter land to retrieve game, or to retrieve a dog, and they are not technically hunting areas wihtout permission because they are in public areas (roads/ditches). Now I am not a rocket scientist, but is there any way that this is ethical?

Am I wrong on my feelings for this? I think people allow it to happen because it is simply a stupid “coyote” and they do not garnish much respect, but I just don’t get it.

Imo the question of ethics doesnt lie in the sport per say but rather the group of hooligans you encountered. Ive heard the same about guys up in the big woods hunting cats the same way. Some peoples idiocy knows no boundrys.

ONce u release hounds u cant always catch em before they cross sections when we used to hunt hounds we useally had land permission for miles and miles in every direction bit once in a while they would get on property that we didnt but normally thats how we gained permission drive up knock on the door and ask em. When talking coyote they 9 times out of ten said killem all. Farmers hate em cause mosr have losr calvs to em once or twice. I guess if I owned land even being a yote hunter and someone ran dogs over it I wouldnt mind. But thats just me

I’m sure I’ve ran with the guys you saw. You would be dumbfounded if you knew how many tens of thousands of acres they have permission to hunt. Some of the old timers have been running this area for 30 years or more. They are so engrained with the local farmers that they have acess to far more land than not. There are a few places that will not give then permission, but its very few. They also work very hard to avoid those places. I would have never dreamed the network they have until i started running hounds with them.

Obviously, there’s no excuse for doing anything illegal, such as shooting from a roadway or from a vehicle. With that said, you’re assuming that the hound hunters do NOT have permission to be running on the land where you saw them.

As others already said, unlike pheasants, ducks, deer, etc, almost no one in farm country views coyotes as an asset. Permission to hunt pheasants can be tough to come by. Coyotes, on the other hand, are a totally different story and many hound hunters have spent decades opening gates because coyotes are very undesireable to almost all landowners.

Also, coyote hunting with guns for sport alone is relatively new. Hound hunting is, quite literally, an ancient sport and until very recently, its effectiveness as a method of pest control was unchallenged.

I think as hunters, we need to be careful calling someone else’s form of hunting “unethical”. Compared to what? Using an e-caller, a decoy, and/or an AR platform with a 50 round magazine?

The British have an excellent saying for this situation: A bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

Grouse

Interesting topic.I used to group hunt(no dogs) but now I prefer to call predators and it is much more fulfilling. In most areas now its all overrun with large groups with 6-8 trucks,radios and AR-15s. Vehicles are running up and down the roads,radios going and guns blasting. The groups I see go anywhere,shoot anywhere,park near buildings and hunt windbreaks without a thought of livestock and disruption. Then they parade around with the yotes on there rooftops like there some kind of heroes. Is this really ethical and good for the sport of hunting? Pretty disgusting in my book.

That doesn’t sound like the guys I’ve ran with. They are more about running the dogs and not out to blast yotes so there is very little shooting. There are other groups in this part of the state and some are more gun happy than others. For me I’m more interested in getting the dogs out and worked then going home with game.

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Obviously, there’s no excuse for doing anything illegal, such as shooting from a roadway or from a vehicle. With that said, you’re assuming that the hound hunters do NOT have permission to be running on the land where you saw them.

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You are correct, I do not know this for fact, but I have a hard time believing that they can have every landowners permission for 10 miles. There are numerous farmsteads with small acreages that while possible to gain permission, is problably not feasible.

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As others already said, unlike pheasants, ducks, deer, etc, almost no one in farm country views coyotes as an asset. Permission to hunt pheasants can be tough to come by. Coyotes, on the other hand, are a totally different story and many hound hunters have spent decades opening gates because coyotes are very undesireable to almost all landowners.

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I can agree with this statement.

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Also, coyote hunting with guns for sport alone is relatively new. Hound hunting is, quite literally, an ancient sport and until very recently, its effectiveness as a method of pest control was unchallenged.

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I am not disputing that this is a very efffective means of hunting, and if you take out the shooting from the road and tresspassing I have no problems with it what so ever.

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I think as hunters, we need to be careful calling someone else’s form of hunting “unethical”. Compared to what? Using an e-caller, a decoy, and/or an AR platform with a 50 round magazine?

The British have an excellent saying for this situation: A bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

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So I am unethical? I sure hope I am misunderstanding you. I don’t shoot an AR15, I don’t have a 50 round clip, and I do not tresspass.

I did not start this to quibble that my style of hunting is better than anyone else’s, but I do think that this does leave a negative impact on other peoples views of US as hunters. I don’t think it matters what we hunt, but the manner in which it is viewed by those who don’t hunt does.

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That doesn’t sound like the guys I’ve ran with. They are more about running the dogs and not out to blast yotes so there is very little shooting. There are other groups in this part of the state and some are more gun happy than others. For me I’m more interested in getting the dogs out and worked then going home with game.

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I have always thought that running hounds would be very fun. I love to watch good dogs hunt, whether they be pheasant dogs, coon hounds, or coyote dogs. The thing I love most about upland is the dog work. It is very fulfilling to see a dog do what it has been breed for.

I respect the hounds and the owners that lawfully pursue coyotes. I have a zero tolerance for ANYONE that hunts in an illegal manor. Regardless of hunting rabbit, deer, duck, upland birds…… when a “hunter” is taking part in an illegal activity, they are projecting a poor image that is unfortunately perceived as all hunters. Not cool, it doesn’t represent me, and I take what they do personally because their actions can have a direct impact on a sport of which I am very passionate about.
Because I trap, I encounter situations that I hope no one else will. Dogs are trained to run, follow scent, and pursue their target species. Many houndsmen will run their dogs ( in this area common to me) with an “Assumption” of permission”. They will run public land, land of which they have permission, and the worst part – land they ASSUME they can hunt. Usually its a case of they got permission from Joe, Joe tells them they can hunt Frank’s land because he leases it, but Frank gave me permission to trap it after pheasant season, because Bill will be hunting it for birds until Christmas. Well, by chance, Bill’s brother Bob is coyote hunting with the group and thinks he has permission for the land because he went hunting one day with Bill.
Fast forward to mid January and a hound is crossing a forty and smells a coyote female gland lure. Stops to investigate the smell and now has a #2 coilspring on its paw. 99% of the time, the inline swivels do their job and the chain never kinks and all is well. But what if that 1% of the time happens. Swivel binds up with brush and won’t turn. Dog keeps spinning in a circle and suddenly there is a beautiful hound with a lacerated or broken paw. Who do you think the dog owner is wanting to hunt down and seek revenge on at that time???? Its a situation that makes me sick because I love dogs. I just hate stupid owners.

WOw I think this argument would go forever because their isnt a sportsmen out their that has the same exact ethics as the next. In a perfect world we should all just respect eachother property and try to stay as ethical as possible. But I can also say ive broke rules and regs id be lying if I said I havent ever. And I think anybody thats an avid outdoorsmen that says they havent once or twice rather it big or small would be lying. So everybody just use your heads and try your best at those whole rule book things and its all good.

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So I am unethical? I sure hope I am misunderstanding you. I don’t shoot an AR15, I don’t have a 50 round clip, and I do not tresspass.

I did not start this to quibble that my style of hunting is better than anyone else’s, but I do think that this does leave a negative impact on other peoples views of US as hunters. I don’t think it matters what we hunt, but the manner in which it is viewed by those who don’t hunt does.

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I’m not saying you’re unethical at all. I don’t pass ethics judgement on anyone who is hunting or trapping legally.

I was simply pointing out that to label another form of hunting as “unethical” because one disapproves of the way in which that hunting is conducted is a slippery slope for any hunter to tread on. As others have pointed out, technically speaking having hounds trail game across land that one does not have permission to hunt falls into a gray area as far as the law is concerned. While it would NOT be legal for the hound hunters to enter that land to kill an animal, they CAN legally enter it for a number of other reasons.

The line on ethics is largely a personal one, especially in the face of the ever-increasing availability of technology. I see now that the first generation of IR heat imaging scopes is on the market. Thus it is now possible to simply scan a wooded or grassy area and “see” if any animals are present as if you had x-ray vision. Ethical? Hmmmm, well as with most things, the answer is not clear cut.

Grouse

farmboy1 wrote:

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<hr>That doesn’t sound like the guys I’ve ran with. They are more about running the dogs and not out to blast yotes so there is very little shooting. There are other groups in this part of the state and some are more gun happy than others. For me I’m more interested in getting the dogs out and worked then going home with game.

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<font class=”post”></font>
<font class=”post”>
</font><font class=”post”>I have always thought that running hounds would be very fun. I love to watch good dogs hunt, whether they be pheasant dogs, coon hounds, or coyote dogs. The thing I love most about upland is the dog work. It is very fulfilling to see a dog do what it has been breed for.</font>

You are welcome to ride along with me anytime. I’m in sw Iowa.

Is it against the law in MN to shoot from a roadway when predator hunting? I know small game is legal from a road, but big game is not.

I’ve seen videos of hunting coyotes with dogs. It looks pretty hillbillyish to me and I’d have concerns over how safe the dogs are around kids after a couple go rounds with another live animal. I don’t see much sport in sitting in a truck while your dogs chase down another dog and Maybe kill it.

There are a lot of “what-ifs” tied into this but I generally think it should be out-lawed. Also mentioned is shooting from a roadway. Pheasants cannot be hunted legally in the “ditch” and have to be in what is considered at least the edge of a “field” of some sort, and no, popping them off the roadway is NOT legal. I question the legality of taking other small game from a roadway as well.

Personally I would have nothing to do with anyone too friggin lazy to get in the field and actually hunt the coyotes if coyotes were on the to do list. Chasing them down with trucks and siccing a pile of mutts on them when they’re exhausted reeks of an ethic I want no part of. I pretty much have the same regard for those who run bear with dogs.

Tom Sawvell wrote:

Also mentioned is shooting from a roadway. Pheasants cannot be hunted legally in the “ditch” and have to be in what is considered at least the edge of a “field” of some sort, and no, popping them off the roadway is NOT legal. I question the legality of taking other small game from a roadway as well.

I believe you to be incorrect on this point, Tom.

I believe the illegality of “ditch” hunting a pheasant is because of private land rights, not roadway issues. While hunting a WMA, when you come up to a road, you can shoot a pheasant that flushes right up next to the gravel(or pavement if it is safe). Shooting a pheasant from a roadway or within a road right of way is most definately legal, as long as it is done safely. “Reckless discharge of a firearm” laws apply EVERYWHERE, not just near roads. The only mention in the regs regarding shooting in relation to road right of ways is in the big game section. It states that you may not shoot from a road right of way, or across one for the purpose of taking big game.

Per the warden in the Advanced Hunter Ed class I took, small game shooting around roads are ok. I believe coyotes, which are unprotected(no license required to hunt them) fall into the same category.

farmboy1 wrote:

As I was out pheasant hunting last week, I saw a group of people huning coyotes with hounds. I do not have a problem with this, except for the fact that they release their dogs on one section, let the dogs chase over posted land, agricultural land, and anywhere they want to go. Then in most situations, set up on sides of a section and fire from roadways (or ditches) at an animal. If they kill it, they then trespass on whoevers land they killed it on to retrieve the animal.

I understand that everything they do falls into the grey area of the laws. You can legally enter land to retrieve game, or to retrieve a dog, and they are not technically hunting areas wihtout permission because they are in public areas (roads/ditches). Now I am not a rocket scientist, but is there any way that this is ethical?

Am I wrong on my feelings for this? I think people allow it to happen because it is simply a stupid “coyote” and they do not garnish much respect, but I just don’t get it.

farmboy1 wrote:

As I was out pheasant hunting last week, I saw a group of people huning coyotes with hounds. I do not have a problem with this, except for the fact that they release their dogs on one section, let the dogs chase over posted land, agricultural land, and anywhere they want to go. Then in most situations, set up on sides of a section and fire from roadways (or ditches) at an animal. If they kill it, they then trespass on whoevers land they killed it on to retrieve the animal.

I understand that everything they do falls into the grey area of the laws. You can legally enter land to retrieve game, or to retrieve a dog, and they are not technically hunting areas wihtout permission because they are in public areas (roads/ditches). Now I am not a rocket scientist, but is there any way that this is ethical?

Am I wrong on my feelings for this? I think people allow it to happen because it is simply a stupid “coyote” and they do not garnish much respect, but I just don’t get it.

Sorry for dragging this out of the archives. I have hounds, the main group I hunt with we run to catch, very rarely use guns. In Iowa, it is not trespassing if you cast your hounds on property you have permission to hunt on and they go onto property that you don’t have permission on. You can legally go in and retrieve your hound without permission, but you have to be unarmed.

Timmy wrote:

Is it against the law in MN to shoot from a roadway when predator hunting? I know small game is legal from a road, but big game is not.

It is very hard to find any regulations in MN regarding coyote laws. They are an unprotected species and don’t fall under the big game laws.
DT

This was on a friends land near Byron. When confronted from the landowner, the persons hunting stated they had permission to hunt there from the person who owns the land. When asked who that was, they had no idea.

The general hunting regs all apply to coyote hunting with dogs.

No shooting from vehicles, no shooting from the roadway. They can enter private land to retrieve dogs, but shooting anything on private land requires permission.

Coyote hunters using dogs are specifically called out in the DNR’s reg book in the Trespassing section:

• A person may not take a wild animal on any land where the person
is prohibited from lawfully entering by this law. This prohibition
includes coyote hunters intentionally running their dogs on posted or agricultural land without permission of the landowner, occupant, or lessee.

Since lawful entry requires permission, Coyote hunters cannot take coyotes on ANY private land where they do not have permission. Like any other hunter with a dog, they can enter ONLY to retrieve the dog/dogs.

Those running coyotes with dogs are often guilty of exploiting a gray area. If you release dogs on a 10 acre parcel that you HAVE permission to hunt, there is a 99.99975% chance that those dogs are going to run off of the parcel that they DO have permission to hunt and onto another parcel where they may or may not have permission.

Grouse

TheFamousGrouse wrote:

The general hunting regs all apply to coyote hunting with dogs.

No shooting from vehicles, no shooting from the roadway.

Grouse

Grouse – I know it sounds nit-picky, but it is a significant point…..

Shooting from a roadway is not referenced in the general hunting regs. It is, however, referenced in the “big game” portion and it clearly states the roadway/right-of-way restrictions for shooting “for the taking of a big game animal”.

Shooting from a vehicle, on the other hand, IS referenced and clearly prohibited.

This is an important distinction, because if somebody is shooting at a pheasant or grouse(no offense ) or a fox/yote from the roadway (on land they are legally able to hunt on), they are NOT breaking the law.

T

Timmy wrote:

Shooting from a roadway is not referenced in the general hunting regs. It is, however, referenced in the “big game” portion and it clearly states the roadway/right-of-way restrictions for shooting “for the taking of a big game animal”.

Shooting from a vehicle, on the other hand, IS referenced and clearly prohibited.

This is an important distinction, because if somebody is shooting at a pheasant or grouse(no offense ) or a fox/yote from the roadway (on land they are legally able to hunt on), they are NOT breaking the law.

I will seek clarification from a friend at the DNR on this issue.

There is a general disclaimer that the hunting regs do not contain all applicable state statutes.

From MN state statutes 97B.001:
SubSec 7.
Use of firearms and taking in certain areas.
(a) Unless otherwise provided by law, a person may not discharge a firearm within 500 feet of a building occupied by a human or livestock without the written permission of the owner, occupant, or lessee:
(1) on another person’s private land, if the land is not a licensed shooting preserve; or
(2) on a public road right-of-way.

This SS and Stat is not specific to hunting, so I have long assumed and I believe at one time it was worded in the hunting regs that NO discharge of a firearm was permitted from a roadway. Which this statue would seem to affirm.

Grouse

Interesting. Thanks for that, grouse.

My interpretation came from the advanced hunter education course I took. One of the speakers we had was an active warden at the time and he made a point to tell us that in MN, big game was the only thing you couldn’t shoot from a road or right of way. He specifically stated that a ruffed grouse(we are in N Mn, so that was the obvious game to use as an example) on the yellow line of the highway was fair game as long as it was a safe shot.

Seeing that roads and restrictions are not listed in the synopsis except under the big game section seemed to reinforce that. If it is in fact illegal, I would say the wardens do a TERRIBLE job of enforcing it, as the vast majority of bord hunters around here hunt roads and trails via trucks and ATVs. It would be a cinch to bust road shooters.

T

Well, my query bounced around the DNR with lightening speed and efficiency for a Friday and you are absolutely correct, Timmy.

It IS legal to shoot anything EXCEPT big game from the road.

From the DNR:

“I appreciate your email and it’s not uncommon that we make a mistake in our regulations handbook, but in this case the book is correct. You are allowed to take small game from the road – the prohibition only applies to big game. The road is not only the traveled portion but it also includes the ditches – if you couldn’t take small game from the road, then hundreds of miles of rural ditches would be off limits to pheasant, grouse, (ect…) hunters.

If you have any other questions, don’t hesitate to email me.

Thanks,

Lt. Colonel Greg Salo, Assistant Director
MN DNR Enforcement
651-259-5045

I, personally, am still a little suspicious here. I can’t believe that in Minnesota I could be standing in the middle of a road blasting away at pheasants and it’s perfectly legal, but so it seems to be as long as I’m committing no other offense.

Thanks for pointing this out, Timmy.

Grouse

Thanks for the follow up. I appreciate it.

That is an interesting find. Thanks grouse for doing some legwork on it.

I have always been led to believe you could hunt roads for small game, but could only shoot from off of the roadway (2 steps into the ditch was the rule of thumb I had heard). I guess we all learn a little something around here.