DNR Roundtable Commentary

  • BigWerm
    Participant
    SW Metro
    Posts: 10143
    #2129677

    I have always looked at the DNR from an outdoorsmans perspective, but they do way more than just manage our hunting and fishing regulations, studies and science. This was evident right away as there were approx 200 attendees (at least 50 of whom were DNR employees), and a small percentage were representatives of hunting and fishing organizations. Meaning the rest were from Environmental groups, which isn’t inherently bad, and we have some opportunities for shared interests/projects. I was told many of the usual fishing attendees were guides, who couldn’t make it to the summer Roundtable instead of the traditional January Roundtable. And to attend the Roundtable you need to represent a larger organization, and since I have no official role or relationship with IDO I tried to make clear I was there representing myself and my opinion only. The following is also my opinion only on the day, and in no way represents IDO nor James.

    The first breakout that I attended was Fishing Regulations: Why and How we use regulations to manage fisheries with Head of Fisheries Brad Parsons. I was very much looking forward to this, as I had a lingering question that I had never received an answer to, despite reaching out to Brad and Sarah Strommen multiple times previously, so my main goal was to hear both of their answers. “On August 15, 2019 Head of Fisheries, Brad Parsons, was quoted in the Mille Lacs Messenger saying he didn’t think fishing on Mille Lacs would need to be closed although we were approaching the quota thru Hooking Mortality. Fishing was closed 2 weeks later, was that decision made by the Commissioner or Governor (2 people above Brad)? And if we can’t have transparency on that question, is there any chance of having transparency in quota negotiations with the tribe? Mille Lacs, as the Walleye Capital of MN, historically supported 200k or more pounds of actual harvest for decades, and we are now coming up on a decade of virtually no actual harvest (1 or 2 fish limit in a highly restrictive slot since 2014), and a fraction of the traditional harvest amount as basically a catch and release quota.”

    Brad answered that he didn’t recall saying that, and that he may have been misquoted. But even if he wasn’t misquoted the state HAS to shut it down once we hit quota. And the tribe is very opposed to opening the quota negotiations to the public, and there is not much benefit from the State’s side on opening it up, so they don’t challenge that aspect. Brad was asked another question and moved on, but offered to chat with me later around lunch. We sat down and chatted after lunch, and he basically reaffirmed what he said earlier, and I offered that we had gone over quota previously, and he implied that was terrible for the relationship with the tribe and why it wouldn’t happen again. He also was confident the tribe acts in good faith regarding negotiations (which he said are challenging for both sides), and tribal netting take and their system for monitoring it (very similar to our creel surveys). Overall I left with a lot of respect for Brad who seemed very open and honest, and extremely skilled in his role.

    When I asked Sarah Strommen this same question at the end of the day, I started by saying I had already asked Brad, but wanted to ask her as well since it involved her, she did not seemed pleased and shot daggers at me the rest of the meeting and that his answer should be sufficient. When I pushed back, she said the state has to shut down when we hit the quota, and that the tribal negotiations are contractually required to be closed and she would not debate it further. I’m not sure what contract established that, but I appreciate them both fielding a challenging question which was my main motivation for going.

    A couple other notes, Brad Parsons said he didn’t think Mille Lacs was capable of ever supporting a 500k quota again (highest harvest ever was over 1 million pounds FYI). Also, in the CWD breakout Kelly Straka was awesome, and I anticipate you will hear more from her going forward. I asked if the DNR looked at CWD as something that could be eliminated or controlled? And she didn’t think we’d ever get rid of it entirely, but was optimistic our efforts to minimize the spread were working and monitoring sites would be growing. Also, she just started in September, but seemed to have a really good grasp of the situation here and is very well credentialed if you want to Google her. FWIW the Fishing Regulations breakout had 24 attendees, at least 8 were DNR employees, and the CWD had 44 attendees with about 8 DNR employees in attendance. The Wolf Management Plan will be going online soon as well, so keep an eye out for more discussion there. And there was no discussion of the 2 line bill that I heard.

    My overall takeaway was this was an awesome event, and we have an extremely skilled and educated DNR staff. However, they are a growing bureaucracy, and corporate/woke speak buzzwords ruled the day it was a constant barrage of, “continuing conversations” “sustainable/sustainability”, “climate crisis”, “buy-in”, “forming partnership”, “points of intersection”, “diversity”, “inclusion”, “equity/equitable”, “cross-funding”, and “forward looking”. None of these things are bad on their own, obviously, but I feel they are an indicator of where our DNR’s focus is, and none of them revolve around the numbers in our deer herds, flocks of birds, or schools of fish. They didn’t mention walleye until near lunch, and the only deer herd talk was in the one CWD breakout and it regarded the possibility of them being decimated by CWD. If the average joe outdoorsman wants an increased focus, it’s pretty clear we will need to be much more organized and carry a louder role with the DNR and at the ballot box.

    mahtofire14
    Participant
    Mahtomedi, MN
    Posts: 10880
    #2129681

    Thanks for the great write up Werm. Sounds like we have some good qualified people in there hopefully doing the right work for our fisheries. I’ve never met Strommen but by reading most of her quotes in articles and reports I get the feeling she’s mostly a talking head. Your interaction with her at this event doesn’t leave me feeling much better about her.

    In regards to the tribal issues, I don’t think they will be challenged or pushed at all in any of these issues nationwide and certainly this state. I don’t see this state challenging anything tribal in this day and age. And maybe that’s the way it should be. It is what it is at this point.

    gimruis
    Participant
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 14707
    #2129683

    I believe the Head of Fisheries, Brad Parsons, is a position filled through normal hire/promotion means at the DNR. Parsons has earned that position through education and experience.

    The DNR Commissioner is an appointed position by the governor. Its obviously only held for a term of 4 years, or if the governor is re-elected, possibly another 4 years. I don’t find Strommen to be overly qualified to be Commissioner of the DNR to be honest. I’d prefer that position be filled through a normal means of hiring to a more qualified, permanent individual.

    So it doesn’t really surprise me that you got better answers from Parsons than you got from Strommen. The subject of Mille Lacs is obviously a controversial one and I believe he’s correct when he says that the lake will never support a 500,000 pound quota again.

    BigWerm
    Participant
    SW Metro
    Posts: 10143
    #2129684

    I’ve never met Strommen but by reading most of her quotes in articles and reports I get the feeling she’s mostly a talking head.

    She’s definitely an expert at delegation, I’ve emailed a few times over the years and she forwards it to the appropriate employee to handle, and they do. She handled the Q&A the same way, most questions she diverted to her deputies to answer (other than my direct question) and she added things when needed. Which I think is how a Commissioner/CEO should handle these things imo.

    3Rivers
    Participant
    Posts: 932
    #2129685

    Thanks for the re-cap!

    I’ve attended the past several forms of the DNR Roundtable (1 or 2 which was virtual due to Covid).
    The very first one I attended I was very impressed with the knowledge and subject matter that was shared and discussed and the recognizable names that were there, however as the years went on, I discovered that it was really the same thing over and over again with the same people saying the same things, asking the same questions, and getting the same answers. Sort of like a Govt groundhog day.

    I really wanted to feel like I was making a difference, especially speaking up and asking questions and challenging some things, but at the end of day felt like it was essentially more like peeing into the wind.

    BigWerm
    Participant
    SW Metro
    Posts: 10143
    #2129688

    I really wanted to feel like I was making a difference, especially speaking up and asking questions and challenging some things, but at the end of day felt like it was essentially more like peeing into the wind.

    A media member told me basically the same thing.

    Jimmy Jones
    Participant
    Posts: 2068
    #2129693

    In regards to the tribal issues, I don’t think they will be challenged or pushed at all in any of these issues nationwide and certainly this state. I don’t see this state challenging anything tribal in this day and age.

    First off the state would have to outlaw any and all lobbying in the state legislature. Then they could hit the tribes up with which do you want to give up on: your strangle hold on Mille Lacs or your casinos? One or the other.

    BigWerm
    Participant
    SW Metro
    Posts: 10143
    #2129695

    In regards to the tribal issues, I don’t think they will be challenged or pushed at all in any of these issues nationwide and certainly this state. I don’t see this state challenging anything tribal in this day and age. And maybe that’s the way it should be. It is what it is at this point.

    I don’t think this is a tribal issue, to be honest, it’s a transparency issue with our DNR. We should be able to have a silent 3rd party in the room (media member), or at least a recording so we can know how our DNR is handling the quota negotiation. But our Governor is subservient to the tribe (and both parties are as well, at least a little bit), and nothing will change until we get him/them out of office. I had another paragraph specifically on Walz at the Roundtable, but he was pretty political so my addressing his comments was as well, and I chose to delete it so this thread wasn’t too political. Hopefully.

    mahtofire14
    Participant
    Mahtomedi, MN
    Posts: 10880
    #2129697

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>mahtofire14 wrote:</div>
    In regards to the tribal issues, I don’t think they will be challenged or pushed at all in any of these issues nationwide and certainly this state. I don’t see this state challenging anything tribal in this day and age. And maybe that’s the way it should be. It is what it is at this point.

    I don’t think this is a tribal issue, to be honest, it’s a transparency issue with our DNR. We should be able to have a silent 3rd party in the room (media member), or at least a recording so we can know how our DNR is handling the quota negotiation. But our Governor is subservient to the tribe (and both parties are as well, at least a little bit), and nothing will change until we get him/them out of office. I had another paragraph specifically on Walz at the Roundtable, but he was pretty political so my addressing his comments was as well, and I chose to delete it so this thread wasn’t too political. Hopefully.

    I agree, but we all know where this debate eventually always leads to. The tribal quota and netting.

    tomr
    Participant
    cottage grove, mn
    Posts: 1253
    #2129698

    Was MN fish there representing our interests?

    gonefishin
    Participant
    Posts: 346
    #2129705

    BigWerm, good write up. Can anyone attend this round table? I would love to have known ahead of time and come and join the discussion on ML. For the last 5+ years I have devoted a a lot of time to trying to understand the management of ML and have had very good relationships with previous ML Fisheries manager Tom J. and current Tom H. along with others also. During this time I have had the opportunity to hear Parson’s many a time, and unlike you I am not at all impressed. He carries the Strommen/Walz water bottle very well as I guess could be expected if he wants to keep his job. But my breaking point came during the last MLFAC Meeting when a discussion was being had in regards to this years options for the walleye season. Tom H. presented a chart showing modeling data for various scenarios and when asked about the chart, Tom could not explain what the data in the chart conveyed and even Parsons stumbled trying to explain the data, and this the data used to make a decision on shut down, harvest quota etc. What Ton H. was able to comment on is that in their modeling, the scenario they prefer is to target 50% of the states quota, to which Parson’s responded, allows him to better sleep at night. They lost me with those comments, and like many before, have decided it is not worth the effort. If you look at the science closely and their modeling, which they shared with me, it would be easy to keep the lake open all year, but with trying to make sure they don’t go above 50% of quota as a target and hell bent on not going over the target, well we get a shut down, year after year. Just think, we leave 30,000 – 40,000 lbs on the table year after year and yet can’t go over by 5,000 – 10,000 lbs. All because the natives carry all the power with this administration. Did I mention Strommen hired the former head negotiator for the tribe to be her point person for the state with the tribe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Bearcat89
    Participant
    North branch, mn
    Posts: 17773
    #2129744

    Was MN fish there representing our interests?

    Good question

    Deuces
    Participant
    Posts: 4878
    #2129749

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>3Rivers wrote:</div>
    I really wanted to feel like I was making a difference, especially speaking up and asking questions and challenging some things, but at the end of day felt like it was essentially more like peeing into the wind.

    A media member told me basically the same thing.

    Same here w the gov stuff I’ve attended and gave input to.

    If you could somehow tie race or gentrification to your cause it becomes more important

    Dan
    Participant
    Southeast MN
    Posts: 3448
    #2129771

    Great reporting Werm!

    Since you brought it up…for anyone that listens to podcasts, on a recent “Wired to Hunt” podcast with Tony Peterson he talks with a guy from Virginia who’s got a major scientific background studying deer, and he spends some time talking about CWD. I definitely heard things or greater detail that I didn’t know before, and the podcast is worth a listen if you do listen to podcasts.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59940
    #2129776

    Gonefishin they have a saying “keep your friends close and your enemies closer”.

    Werm, with anything in government, nothing changes immediately. The catfish workgroup had a lot of low hanging fruit. We made a lot of progress really fast (compared to other species changes).

    Now we are at a standstill and it frustrates not only the MN cat fishermen but the folks in the workgroup. In fact there are some that left our workgroup because they didn’t feel they were making a difference by seeing the changes they wanted as fast as they wanted.

    Tribes and the DNR is much like the WI DNR and the MN DNR. It’s frustrating!

    Thanks for going in my place this year, it gave IDO members a little insight from another persons point of view. waytogo

    BigWerm
    Participant
    SW Metro
    Posts: 10143
    #2129787

    BigWerm, good write up. Can anyone attend this round table? I would love to have known ahead of time and come and join the discussion on ML….during this time I have had the opportunity to hear Parson’s many a time, and unlike you I am not at all impressed. He carries the Strommen/Walz water bottle very well as I guess could be expected if he wants to keep his job.

    Unfortunately not everyone can attend, my understanding is you need to represent or be part of a larger group AND be invited to attend. I’ve tried in the past, and got no where. I was only able to attend this time thanks to BK, him being on vacation during the meeting and IDO earning an invite.

    The DNR is like any other hierarchy, and usually they do not reward free thinking and opposing or even challenging viewpoints. So even if Brad were to take up some of the, very valid imo, points anglers of the state wanted, he would be fired and looking for work in short order. Also, he answers diplomatically and honestly, you just need to read between the lines and I took his and Sarah’s answers to my question to mean the Governor said they would not challenge the quota or the tribe in 2019. Gov Dayton did the opposite in 2016 and kept the lake open, and my understanding is the tribe still uses that as leverage in negotiations. So the Tribe talks and Walz listens and then does their bidding. End of story, so us or any DNR party needs to participate under those parameters or not have a place at the table. I don’t like it, but it is what it is imo.

    Reef W
    Participant
    Posts: 2140
    #2129811

    I took his and Sarah’s answers to my question to mean the Governor said they would not challenge the quota or the tribe in 2019. Gov Dayton did the opposite in 2016 and kept the lake open, and my understanding is the tribe still uses that as leverage in negotiations. So the Tribe talks and Walz listens and then does their bidding.

    Not just specifically for you BigWerm but what, exactly, do people want Walz to do? The system existed long before Walz and is ordered by a federal court. My understanding is is any disagreements that can’t be resolved between the state and bands in mediation just ends up back in court to decide and is again out of the states hands.

    Bearcat89
    Participant
    North branch, mn
    Posts: 17773
    #2129813

    I’m more under the , who cares if you can’t keep a Mille lacs walleye. At least we can still fish the lake and keep 1 at certain times of the year.
    Be glad it isn’t a lake issue like lower red or where only natives are allowed. Many other lakes to keep fish from. If you are so worried about the resorts, set up a go fund me so they can build a resort on another body of water.

    BigWerm
    Participant
    SW Metro
    Posts: 10143
    #2129824

    Not just specifically for you BigWerm but what, exactly, do people want Walz to do?

    Be transparent. He campaigns on it all the time, so live it Governor. Let us see how the sausage is made on the Mille Lacs quota. Never close the lake. Our quota is “hit” based off of bad science on the mythical Hooking Mortality #’s, so it should never be closed. It’s been pretty much all catch and release since 2014.

    gimruis
    Participant
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 14707
    #2129828

    Be transparent. He campaigns on it all the time, so live it Governor. Let us see how the sausage is made on the Mille Lacs quota. Never close the lake. Our quota is “hit” based off of bad science on the mythical Hooking Mortality #’s, so it should never be closed. It’s been pretty much all catch and release since 2014.

    I agree. There isn’t a whole lot he can do because there is a federal treaty in place, but a little more transparency would be appreciated.

    The other issue I have, that maybe has not even been taken up, is the variability from winter to open-water. Winter permits 2 lines, has no night ban, never has a closed season, and allows harvest the whole time. Open water allows 1 line, has a closed season, has a season long night ban, and has a very limited harvest in May. We should not be closing the season entirely on open water anglers and giving all the perks to winter anglers. It should be more balanced out equally for both.

    Bearcat89
    Participant
    North branch, mn
    Posts: 17773
    #2129829

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>BigWerm wrote:</div>
    Be transparent. He campaigns on it all the time, so live it Governor. Let us see how the sausage is made on the Mille Lacs quota. Never close the lake. Our quota is “hit” based off of bad science on the mythical Hooking Mortality #’s, so it should never be closed. It’s been pretty much all catch and release since 2014.

    I agree. There isn’t a whole lot he can do because there is a federal treaty in place, but a little more transparency would be appreciated.

    The other issue I have, that maybe has not even been taken up, is the variability from winter to open-water. Winter permits 2 lines, has no night ban, never has a closed season, and allows harvest the whole time. Open water allows 1 line, has a closed season, has a season long night ban, and has a very limited harvest in May. We should not be closing the season entirely on open water anglers and giving all the perks to winter anglers. It should be more balanced out equally for both.

    Is that solely due to how much water a guy can cover in his boat due to the water you cant cover while ice fishing.
    I fish both summer and winter and can say I never keep fish up there. Nor care enough to complain about it. If a guy wants keepers then why go to Mille lacs.

    gimruis
    Participant
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 14707
    #2129842

    Is that solely due to how much water a guy can cover in his boat due to the water you cant cover while ice fishing.
    I fish both summer and winter and can say I never keep fish up there. Nor care enough to complain about it. If a guy wants keepers then why go to Mille lacs.

    I’m in the same boat as you. I don’t go there to harvest fish. I primarily actually go there to smallmouth fish.

    I just believe that anglers should have equal opportunities whether they are fishing winter or open water. And right now, the opportunities, whether that be harvesting fish, fishing at night, etc heavily favor the winter angler.

    Bearcat89
    Participant
    North branch, mn
    Posts: 17773
    #2129844

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Bearcat89 wrote:</div>
    Is that solely due to how much water a guy can cover in his boat due to the water you cant cover while ice fishing.
    I fish both summer and winter and can say I never keep fish up there. Nor care enough to complain about it. If a guy wants keepers then why go to Mille lacs.

    I’m in the same boat as you. I don’t go there to harvest fish. I primarily actually go there to smallmouth fish.

    I just believe that anglers should have equal opportunities whether they are fishing winter or open water. And right now, the opportunities, whether that be harvesting fish, fishing at night, etc heavily favor the winter angler.

    Are these rules favored because of the coverage of water you can get in a boat ? I’m actually asking that. I have no knowledge on why these rules are in place.

    gimruis
    Participant
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 14707
    #2129846

    Are these rules favored because of the coverage of water you can get in a boat ? I’m actually asking that. I have no knowledge on why these rules are in place.

    No, I don’t think coverage of water has anything to do with the rules in place.

    I think they are in place because businesses on the lake know that winter generates more anglers and money than the open-water season does, so they validate that by being more liberal with the rules/harvest.

    Of course, the fishing is almost always better during the open water season, so perhaps there is some balance on actual catch rate.

    BigWerm and Gonefishin seem to be well-versed on this subject so maybe they can elaborate and offer some insight.

    Dan
    Participant
    Southeast MN
    Posts: 3448
    #2129852

    Do water temps and their effect on mortality come into play as a reason why?

    BigWerm
    Participant
    SW Metro
    Posts: 10143
    #2129863

    My understanding on the Winter/Summer differences was due to MLFAC (primarily businesses) lobbying for more liberal regs in the winter when they make more money, like Gimruis said. And it being supported by nearly non-existent hooking mortality per their studies (hooking mortality is statistically insignificant until water temps hit 70 degrees). So our quota is “hit” by their creel surveys of actual harvest in the winter, and the creel surveys x mythical hooking mortality % in the summer.

    Ripjiggen
    Participant
    Posts: 10485
    #2129897

    Um…..the federal treaty has nothing to do with harvest numbers or quotas. That is solely on the Gov and the DNR.

    BigWerm
    Participant
    SW Metro
    Posts: 10143
    #2129900

    Um…..the federal treaty has nothing to do with harvest numbers or quotas. That is solely on the Gov and the DNR.

    x2 and even within the treaty the MN Government/DNR has authority for conservation purposes, which would seem to apply to a lake without an actual harvest by the general public since 2014. But I digress…

    Ripjiggen
    Participant
    Posts: 10485
    #2129902

    There is also zero reason for a shutdown for 2 weeks in July at this time.

    Reef W
    Participant
    Posts: 2140
    #2129906

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Ripjiggen wrote:</div>
    Um…..the federal treaty has nothing to do with harvest numbers or quotas. That is solely on the Gov and the DNR.

    x2 and even within the treaty the MN Government/DNR has authority for conservation purposes, which would seem to apply to a lake without an actual harvest by the general public since 2014. But I digress…

    Look at protocol #5 from the 1997 court case. It won’t let me post with the link but search for “mille lacs protocol 5” and you should find a PDF on the DNR website.

    The part I referenced earlier, in regards to the harvestable surplus calculations, is “In the absence of agreement regarding such matters following the committee and mediation process, either the State or the Bands have the option of invoking the court’s continuing jurisdiction to seek resolution of the matter”

    It cannot be unilaterally decided or either side can bring it back to the court to decide.

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