Deer on the Hoof

I’ve got to ask….how do each of you, especially those of you practicing QDM or searching for that wallhanger, determine the size of the deer in the relatively short timeframe given.

In reviewing my last two seasons of gun hunting in WI, I’ve harvested a doe in each year and have passed on three of the largest 5 deer I’ve ever seen on our property. This year, like last, I’m starting to doubt my decision to pass on some of the bucks I’ve encountered.

I don’t know if I’m thinking this through properly. I hunt Buffalo County so I’ve been looking for that giant deer and I’ve seen two giants in the 5 years I’ve been hunting there.
Both in doe only T-zone hunts.

Take this year, I’m EAB qualified with last years doe, I’ve got two stands that I’m really excited about. Both are the efforts of refining spots learned over the last five years. They are both on steep ridges so I decide opening day to sit in a big stand literally 100 yards from my truck, until 30 minutes after sunrise, at which point I’ll make the treacherous walk to stand #1.

20 minutes into legal shooting and I hear a deer approaching, bring my rifle up, see that it’s a buck and a decent one, and start to shape up this deer. It’s doing a slow trot through the woods, time from the 1st sighting to last sighting is less than a minute. I count eight points but I’m not terribly in love with the body. Probably a 2.5 year old. So I let it pass, 15 yards from this stand.

Two hours later I harvest my doe from stand 1. Time from the first sighting to shot is less than 15 seconds. I hunt a steep hill and on what I call spines with a deep ravine between them. If a deer comes at me perpendicular to the spines, i.e.a deer that is maintaining altitude, I have about 20-30 seconds tops to see, analyze, and shoot. If a deer comes at me parallel to the spine, ie a deer that is going up or downhill, I have much longer, as much as 10-15 minutes.

Well,that eats up Saturday morning getting her out of the woods. Saturday afternoon in stand 2 produces nothing. On Sunday, I get to stand #2 mid-morning. At about 1 pm I get out of the stand to stretch, open up a Mountain Dew. I’m being very quiet but my gun is near me against a tree. I spot a buck at the bottom of the ravine, right in the middle of the spines. He’s coming uphill. I pick up my rifle and count 8 points. (here I’ll tell you that I need a new scope, mine’s 30 years old but I shoot this gun extremely accurately so I hate to mess with it, its not broken. But on a 50 yard range, I can’t tell through the scope if I’ve hit the target, I have to use spotting glasses). I judge the body and its bigger than yesterday’s buck, but again I judge it to be a 2.5 year old. I set my gun down and he’s still coming uphill. At that point I grab my new binocs and whoa. Now I’m not sure. The magnification on the binocs really makes me question my decision to let this one pass. I reach for my gun, the deer busts me and jumps off.

I’ve attached some pics of my view from stand 2. I can almost step into my stand from the ground on one side but on the other side it’s already about 8 feet to the ground, it’s that steep. The bleached tree laying mostly over is in all three pics. The top of it is 30 yards from me and @ 30′ below me elevation wise. This deer came up the hill, from the right side of picture 1, and made it all the way up to even with me (far left of pic 2)

So there’s the background and geography of my question. How do you judge deer on the hoof? I struggle to use my binocs first cause deer cutting across the spines will only give me a 20 second window of opportunity, not enough time to glass, raise rifle, and shoot.

What do or what would you do? Would you have the binocs ready first or rely on the 30 plus year old scope on my gun. The easy answer is to buy a new scope, but like I said, I really have this gun dialed in. I haven’t touched the adjustments since I started shooting again 5 years ago.

What other suggestions do you have? I really hate that I have to go through another entire year wondering if I did the right thing in letting those two bucks pass, or if I made an error in judgement of their size. Is it likely with a poor scope that I missed points and the deer were actually 10’s, or more?

Am I right to think that when I see the right deer, it will be a no brainer situation and I won’t waver on the decision?

Eric

Cougar, My experience tells me if you see a shooter you’ll know the instant you see it. I’ve personally shot bucks where I was questioning them and running out of time for a good shot and after the kill and walk up I was kicking myself. Ears are usually for me the best way for me to judge a set of antlers. I always reach for my binos first and I wear them on the suspender type strap, even bow hunting. I messed up on a great buck last year trying to range him with my rangefinder so I know what you mean about having to make a quick judgement call, alot of times they’re in a second and out even faster. Although a few years ago I thought I had a shooter in front of me during ml without question, so I took him and when I walked up to him I couldn’t believe what I saw, a tiny bodied deer with a somewhat decent rack. The deers body made his rack look soooo much bigger so that can throw a person off too. I weighed him the next day and he went a whopping 118lbs. But, I feel that if you have to question yourself, let him live or kick yourself like I have. Also, with very little time, a quality new scope, and quality rings you could have your gun shooting as good as it is now.

First off, get a good scope ASAP. I have a Leopold, and I can damn near see as good with it as with my binos. In those instances when you have a minute or less, IMO, there’s no time for bino use.

Cougar…maybe you need someone else with you to hunt! Kidding…I agree with Mossboss and get a new scope. If you can spot him in the scope and size him up you’re that much better off. And try and grunt or whistle to try and stop him to give you a few extra seconds to size him up!

Cougareye,

Ok this is long but I hope helpful for some people. This is what I have been doing for about 6-7 years and has worked out quite well. First of all I will define what is a shooter for me. In most instances anything that will NET P&Y or 125 inches. Or basically what I’m looking for to start with is 130 gross inches. This is the guide I use.

First I look at one side and look for 20-22 inches of tine length on that one side. I quickly scan the other to make sure it is similar. If it has 22 inches or better I’m pretty sure it will gross P&Y and I put it on Auto pilot mode and look for my shot. If it is 20 inches I look at other things like spread, main beam length and circumference (mass). If it has 20” es in tine length and average main beams average mass and just at the ears it will be close and I will probably pass. If it has 20” in tine length and it is wide, heavy, or long beams it will be a shooter and I will study it more if I have the chance or take the shot.

Now, we should look at how deer are scored. Deer are scored basically on 4 different measurements. 1) Tine Length, 2) Main Beam Length, 3) Main Beam Mass (Circumference) and 4) Spread. Like someone said earlier if a 150” buck steps out you know it. So we will look at those bucks that are a lil more closer to the 125” P&Y score. Ok, the way I look at it unless your Brad, spread is not going to make or break the bank as MOST deer you are considering or questioning on taking are 16”- 18” wide. I look for his inside spread to be at or past his ears which on an Adult whitetail is about 16.5-17.25”. This is easy to tell at a glance. Secondly, main beam length is tricky, but you really do not need to study a deer that has 25” Main beams, it falls back on you know he is a shooter when you see him. Main Beam Mass is pretty much the same thing. If you see a deer with 6” circumference on the bases you need not to study him that much. So that leaves tine length to me as the most important thing to look for on most deer you see in the woods. This is where deer easily make it or miss it is on tine length. On a 8 pointer (4×4) I’m looking at 3 things to determine a shooter and a 10 point (5×5) 4 things. Brow or G1, G2, G3 and if he has a G4. So that is 3-4 numbers to add up to make my 22″ Rule.

OK, here is why 20-22 inches of tine length is so important for me. We will take 22” of tine length for this example as this will typically be a Tweener Buck (one that is close) for me. We will use average measurements for this example. If a buck is heavier/longer or lighter/shorter you need to adjust but this is what I look for on a snap 3-4 second decision that deer often only give us :

• 22” of tine length x 2 for the other similar side gives you: 44” of Tine Length

• Main beams on a “Tweener Buck” typically run from 18-20”. We will pick 19”” for one side. Multiply by 2 (the other side) gives you: 38” of Main Beam

• Main Beam Circumference, if that buck has of average mass

I use 15” per side for the 4 measurements or : 30” total of Mass

• Last is spread. I will quick look and if he is at the ears I use 17” of Spread

If you total the above up you come up with 129”. Now this is Gross estimated inches. If the buck is wider, heavier or has long main beams I then look for 20”. If he is a 5×4 I look at his 4 side and make my 22” calculation. If I’m unsure at first glance and he is close and coming in I draw back, my bow and then continue to analyze him. This is not fool proof, but the best way I found out to make it better is score every deer you see. If you are watching TV, Videos, or in the Wild, Score every deer you see by using the above formula. You will be amazed how close you can get. Practice makes perfect and more efficient when the time comes up and you need to do it fast. There a re a few farms I hunt that we have a 140” gross minimum we try to achieve. What I do is up my # and I look for to 24” of tine and typically the other things come up also if they meet the 24” Rule.

That is what I do to make a snap decision. Otherwise if I have the time I start scoring the whole one side in my head (tine, main beams length and mass) and come up with a score, multiply x2 and add spread. Otherwise this is where trial cam pics really help you out as hopefully you have cam pics of him and already predetermined if he was a shooter or not, but as we all know not all deer show themselves to us before popping up 20 yards in your lane. I hope this helps and is not too confusing.

To answer your other questions. I have my binocs on my chest at all times as you are right you don’t have all day to judge bucks sometimes and I don’t have a scope on my bow.

I can raise/lower my binocs with very lil movment with the Harness I wear. Secondly, Deer hunting to me is huge, I would also get a new scope. They have some pretty good ones now that let a ton of light in and are crystal clear around the $200-300 from Nikon, Leopould and Burris. I have Burris and Nikon and love them both.

Cougar,

I personaly think you must use the combination between headgear and body proportions. It is not an exact science but the one that helps me the most I think, and is the first thing I look for, is the transition from the deers lower jaw to his neck. I then look for him seeming to have shorter legs. There are alot of different tools that can aid us in being more accurate in aging the deer we are hunting. I go on http://www.qdma.com once in awhile and I’d bet they would have something over there….maybe even some pictures for you to look at.

Thanks for all the replies! I’m still haunted almost daily on that second deer. But that’s the excitement of deer hunting. I had a good season getting a deer for the table and having the opportunity to see some nice bucks.

When I do down that big buck, it will make all these passes worth it.

For now I need to learn to score and look into a new scope for the gun.

Eric

Cougareye….

I would use the information you have been given as well…..

I will also say that it will payoff to invest in a better scope…. I bought my first Burris before hunting this fall. I picked up the Fullfield II. Basically one of the cheaper scopes that Burris sells, But it was a huge improvement over the $40 simmons I had on that rifle. Way better clarity, huge difference in the light gathering category as well. I originally had my reservations about this scope, but turned out I love it. I had also considered Nikon and Leupold, but went with the Burris because of the price point. When I bought it I ordered it from Cabela’s on sale for $209 and it included a free Garmin E-Trex gps. (now yes a cheap handheld unit, but worth $100 bones none the less) I sold the GPS to my BIL for $60 and total out of pocket was pretty reasonable. It does an excellent job at gathering light, in fact objects are brighter in low light conditions than looking through my Leupold 10×50 binocs. So that means that if it is legal shooting time and I can spot something in the binocs, that I know I can find it and see clearly with the scope..To me that is huge.

Also if you don’t have one already spend the $20 and get a Binoc Harness system like the ones by Crooked Horn. Huge difference there in how long it takes to get the glass up and how much noise you don’t make doing it. Plus when walking or moving around it keeps them secured against your chest instead of having them bounce around.

I too am like you and have passed many up in the last several years hoping to get that wall Hanger…I haven’t shot a buck in 6 years..And I will say that we are seeing more decent bucks…So maybe next year is my chance??

ttt…

Rob’s response on scoring deer on the hoof is a good one to rehash!

Eric

Thanks Eric I copied it below again.

Cougareye,

Ok this is long but I hope helpful for some people. This is what I have been doing for about 6-7 years and has worked out quite well. First of all I will define what is a shooter for me. In most instances anything that will NET P&Y or 125 inches. Or basically what I’m looking for to start with is 130 gross inches. This is the guide I use.

First I look at one side and look for 20-22 inches of tine length on that one side. I quickly scan the other to make sure it is similar. If it has 22 inches or better I’m pretty sure it will gross P&Y and I put it on Auto pilot mode and look for my shot. If it is 20 inches I look at other things like spread, main beam length and circumference (mass). If it has 20” es in tine length and average main beams average mass and just at the ears it will be close and I will probably pass. If it has 20” in tine length and it is wide, heavy, or long beams it will be a shooter and I will study it more if I have the chance or take the shot.

Now, we should look at how deer are scored. Deer are scored basically on 4 different measurements. 1) Tine Length, 2) Main Beam Length, 3) Main Beam Mass (Circumference) and 4) Spread. Like someone said earlier if a 150” buck steps out you know it. So we will look at those bucks that are a lil more closer to the 125” P&Y score. Ok, the way I look at it unless your Brad, spread is not going to make or break the bank as MOST deer you are considering or questioning on taking are 16”- 18” wide. I look for his inside spread to be at or past his ears which on an Adult whitetail is about 16.5-17.25”. This is easy to tell at a glance. Secondly, main beam length is tricky, but you really do not need to study a deer that has 25” Main beams, it falls back on you know he is a shooter when you see him. Main Beam Mass is pretty much the same thing. If you see a deer with 6” circumference on the bases you need not to study him that much. So that leaves tine length to me as the most important thing to look for on most deer you see in the woods. This is where deer easily make it or miss it is on tine length. On a 8 pointer (4×4) I’m looking at 3 things to determine a shooter and a 10 point (5×5) 4 things. Brow or G1, G2, G3 and if he has a G4. So that is 3-4 numbers to add up to make my 22″ Rule.

OK, here is why 20-22 inches of tine length is so important for me. We will take 22” of tine length for this example as this will typically be a Tweener Buck (one that is close) for me. We will use average measurements for this example. If a buck is heavier/longer or lighter/shorter you need to adjust but this is what I look for on a snap 3-4 second decision that deer often only give us :

• 22” of tine length x 2 for the other similar side gives you: 44” of Tine Length

• Main beams on a “Tweener Buck” typically run from 18-20”. We will pick 19”” for one side. Multiply by 2 (the other side) gives you: 38” of Main Beam

• Main Beam Circumference, if that buck has of average mass

I use 15” per side for the 4 measurements or : 30” total of Mass

• Last is spread. I will quick look and if he is at the ears I use 17” of Spread

If you total the above up you come up with 129”. Now this is Gross estimated inches. If the buck is wider, heavier or has long main beams I then look for 20”. If he is a 5×4 I look at his 4 side and make my 22” calculation. If I’m unsure at first glance and he is close and coming in I draw back, my bow and then continue to analyze him. This is not fool proof, but the best way I found out to make it better is score every deer you see. If you are watching TV, Videos, or in the Wild, Score every deer you see by using the above formula. You will be amazed how close you can get. Practice makes perfect and more efficient when the time comes up and you need to do it fast. There a re a few farms I hunt that we have a 140” gross minimum we try to achieve. What I do is up my # and I look for to 24” of tine and typically the other things come up also if they meet the 24” Rule.

That is what I do to make a snap decision. Otherwise if I have the time I start scoring the whole one side in my head (tine, main beams length and mass) and come up with a score, multiply x2 and add spread. Otherwise this is where trial cam pics really help you out as hopefully you have cam pics of him and already predetermined if he was a shooter or not, but as we all know not all deer show themselves to us before popping up 20 yards in your lane. I hope this helps and is not too confusing.

This is how I approach my hunt, while in the stand and with certain goals in mind this is my mindset,

I glance at the overall height, width and mass we all have a gut feeling from those three, then I look at the whole picture the rack, the body and the moment with all the action if this buck gets me excited and jacked then this is the buck for me.

The bottom line is you hardly ever have time to measure and calculate if you really like what you see then that moment is yours

Good luck this Fall!

Jeff

If it looks bigger then most of the deer you see look harder to make sure he’s got his whole rack and there’s no broken tines or mainbeam. A decent rack down here is atleast as wide as the ears and that’s about a 17″ average. You will definately know when you see a bigger buck because his beams go out past the ears 2″ too 3″ on both sides, after that its up to you.

Ok, Pat got me looking back at some good older posts. I love this one and the discussion of scoring a deer quickly before the shot.

What was interesting as I look back at this, the next year I shot my biggest buck ever, grossing @145″. I’ll try to find my story I posted on that one later, but I remember believing that this deer was one of the two I passed the year before.

So it’s been 5 years for me since the big buck! I’m due again!!

ET

I didn’t notice the date of the post at first but felt like we’ve had this conversation before… LOL.

I got tested last weekend in SD. 3 quick rules I use:

1. As wide or wider than the ears.
2. Tall – must have some height to him, 6″ + 2’s and 3’s
3. Main beams need to reach to the nose almost.

Mass is also nice but not always easy to tell.

The young buck I passed last weekend, likely 3.5. He came in from the west with a setting sun behind him. I could see he clearly had the height and width was just at the ears. I couldn’t make out the mass and beams until he was at 12 yards. It was at that point I knew he wasn’t a shooter. Up to that, I had my release clipped on and I had THAT “feeling” in my chest.

I try not to use the rack to judge body size and even body size is often hard to judge when it’s just one deer. Look at the legs, do they appear short, is there belly sag, sway in the back, does the head look stocky, heavy chest. things like that will tell you a lot quicker the maturity of the deer. If he is a mature deer, then look at the rack. Like Kooty said ear wide minimum, mass and height of tines next. Most of that can be done without a scope or binos within 75-100 yards. A quick look through the scope or binos can confirm what you think, then squeeze one off.

kooty wrote:

I didn’t notice the date of the post at first but felt like we’ve had this conversation before… LOL.

Me too, I thought to myself, hey Rob’s back……

sticker wrote:

Like Kooty said ear wide minimum

There are exceptions to that rule. The 148 I shot with the bow two years ago had a whopping 13.25″ spread, but his G1s were 5, G2s were 8, his G3s were 10, and his G4s were 7. Spread is the last thing I consider as it is only one measurement, and the difference between a wide deer and a narrow deer is 7 inches at best.

I have a fairly small property, saturated with trail cameras, and can identify almost every deer I see based on pictures. Makes it pretty easy to know your shooters. The curve ball is during the rut when you get deer just passing through.

I know this is an old thread, but a good discussion never really gets old.

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Eric, you’ve done the hardest part of accepting the fact that you may eat a tag to get a big mature buck. I’m in Richland County and basically the same terrain as you. Most of my encounters are 30 seconds and MUCH less. I have binocs for looking at deer across my field out at 500, 700, and more yrds. But up close, its all eyeball and my scope.
Our enviroment with all the neighbors make for very pressured deer. Usually trotting/running with their ears up and spread out. That helps on gauging the width. Usually rack = ears is about 16″ spread. So, I’m looking for at least a couple inches out side the ears on both sides. Mass is usually quick to see. If you struggle to see the rack on a trotting deer at 50 yrds, usually a very small buck. Quartered towards or away is the way i like to see them approaching. Gives a chance to see mass, width, and form.
Guessing the age on a trotting deer is real tough. I try to pick out key features of the head & shoulder structure. Hard for me to describe, but seeing a 3-1/2 and a 5-1/2 old deer is very different. The head has a different appearance, and the body structure just begins to look huge.

1st pic – I almost shot this buck the year before. He gave me a couple opportunities as he tried to sneak around me through brush. When it came time to touch the trigger, his body just seemed small in relationship to his head. Glad i let him go. Found his sheds while spring turkey hunting. That fall, his outside spread from the year prior was his inside spread. He really filled out in that 1 more year. I had about 5 seconds to go/no-go on him. One look at his head coming through a tree top, I knew with no hesitation which buck this was and he was going down.

Pic 2 – 2-1/2 old in the center (Olivia’s first buck), 5-1/2 on the left and 4-1/2 on the right that my dad shot. When I shot bigfoot, I had well under 10 seconds to look, get my gun up and send one through him. The moment I saw him, I only saw the rack going through raspberry brush. Just knew he was big and 1 of the 3 I was waiting on. Had a hard time with where to shoot him at. His body at 75 yrds (4X in the scope) looked so massive. Dressed out he weighed 239# Biggest bodied deer I ever shot.

Wish we had mulies around here………

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Rob, where have you been, glad to see you back, hows the kid doing,,,

He’s not back. This is an old post. I thought the same thing on a few posts but some of the older posts are just being brought back to the top.
DT

Oh well Deertracker, atleast the thought was there, where’d he go anyway, anyone know?

I think some of it was job change and family obligations. There have been a few old posts brought back and Im like hey, Robs back. Then I see the date. A few guys are fb friends with him
DT