ATV Dilemma

I own a 97 Honda FourTrax 400, that’s been nothing but bulletproof in the face of complete abuse and total neglect. That is, until this summer.

One day, it simply wouldn’t start. Took it to a shop, they diagnosed an electrical issue, replaced a few items but noticed some serious slip in the clutch. Yep, I plow snow with it and about everything else, and there was some serious clutch wear. I elected to replace the clutch, and with the electrical work, I was staring at a $960 bill. Steep, but the math worked out right from what I could tell and it was fair for all the work/parts they had to throw at it.

The only problem? I got it home, and it missed HARD on the top end of every gear. Top end speed was reduced, and gears 4/5 had very little power. Lower gears had no power within gear because of all the missing on the higher RPM end of each gear. Took it back. They were good about it. Said they don’t see any way it could possibly be something they did in replacing what they did. However, this machine has NEVER done this. Not ever. It was obviously something that they either accelerated, caused, or otherwise put in motion. They looked at it again, put in some O-rings, gaskets, cylinder head cover, and adjusted the carb. Said it was better. I test drove it after getting it home again, and it was far WORSE!

At this point, I take it back, and they did leakdown tests, exhaust pressure tests…..just about everything else they could think of. The only thing they figure is a hanging valve, loose valve seat, or other cylinder work. Parts alone to replace cylinder head are near $500, at which point I’d have nearly $1500 into a nearly 20 year old machine with no guarantee as to a complete and total correction of the current problem? Replacing it with new or even quality used is difficult. Should I cut the cord on this machine? Fixing myself doesn’t save all that much if they’re willing to do the work for free. I can shave off some $ by getting used parts on ebay, but that doesn’t amount to much at the end of the day.

They’re willing to fix on the cost of parts alone, but I’m not sure how to feel about that. I had a perfectly good wheeler that never had any issues with missing ever, and after they got their hands on it, that’s all it can do. I completely understand that this may have been an issue lurking in the background which their wrenching could’ve accentuated, but I’m still unsure as to what is their responsibility and what I should just chalk up to bad luck?

They’ve been good about it, but slow. I can tell they’re hoping I accept it as is because they’ve been through it forwards and backwards without much else to say other than to replace the cylinder head. Their lead tech has almost 40 years experience on Honda ATVs, and I trust that it’s nothing they’re doing wrong, but this is a tough spot.

Advice?

Joel

that’s a tough call I’m dealing with same issues with my work car, when do you cut it loose. But when all repairs are done it should last or it’s worth selling to recover your cost. If it won’t run it’s not worth anything. Just my 2 cents.

Almost sounds like you have one more chance at getting it repaired right. You may have to us it as a trade in for a newer use one. You may have to ink this one good-bye. Good luck it is hard!!!

That’s a tough spot, especially if they are folks that have been there for you in the past. If there’s trust in the relationship, they’ll know you’re not trying to screw them…undoubtedly they’ve that more than a few times in the past with other “customers”. Is there any chance, they could give you a really, really good deal on either a new bike or a used one that’s in great condition? A little bit more money in your part and a whole lot less lost time on their part might be part of the solution.

Joel, its an ugly situation when you have to throw more money at what a machine can be worth. I’ve been fortunate with my A/C 500 and all the abuse it takes.
Relating it to when I was racing dirt bikes back in the 80’s., having engines rebuilt was a common occurrence. The cost always seem to come out at a price point that made you look at buying another machine. Back then, a YZ250 used in decent shape ran about 1500-1800. Engine & carb rebuilt was about 600-700 with some upgraded racing toys added. OUCH!!

But look at the ATV world and what will 2K buy you? Not much. Most likely a machine in high hours, worn tires, work suspension, and a worn engine. So the inevitable comes up again with repairs….but after buy another machine for 1500-2K (compared to your repair bill). At least this way you know what you have. If the mechanics of your machine are in good enough shape, it should warrant the repairs and you’ll get your use out of it.

I’ve been down the road a few times on crappy repairs on engines. I try to be open minded and fare. But I make it clear that I need a thorough test of the engine to know what all we need to do. I try hard to not ghet caught up in paying for band-aids and guess work. If they need to guess, often they weren’t too thorough in testing.

May turn into a money pit or may be worth taking a chance on fixing everything. If they have done compression check and all was good I would look more at the fuel delivery system instead of taring into the motor. With the cheap gas these days that would not be out of the realm of possibilities. Last year the problem I had with mine when it was acting up was just a new spark plug was needed.

No way, Joel. I’m calling BS on the cylinder/valve theory! Those items would impact performance at all RPMs, not just upper end. They’re BSing you because they’re grasping at straws.

If something was working, then not working, mechanical training 101 should say look at what you just did and find out what you hosed up. Not that this has ever happened to me personally, mind you, but other guys say…

They hosed up something with the electrical system when they were working on it. They broke or chaffed a wire, something’s arcing, or wires got hooked up wrong. Also, are they SURE they replaced the right part with the exact same part?

Take it to another shop and I’d say Honda dealer would be even better. Pay for a diagnosis and tell them what the other shop did. That should narrow down where to look for whatever it is the other shop did wrong.

Grouse

TheFamousGrouse wrote:

No way, Joel. I’m calling BS on the cylinder/valve theory! Those items would impact performance at all RPMs, not just upper end. They’re BSing you because they’re grasping at straws.

If something was working, then not working, mechanical training 101 should say look at what you just did and find out what you hosed up. Not that this has ever happened to me personally, mind you, but other guys say…

They hosed up something with the electrical system when they were working on it. They broke or chaffed a wire, something’s arcing, or wires got hooked up wrong. Also, are they SURE they replaced the right part with the exact same part?

Take it to another shop and I’d say Honda dealer would be even better. Pay for a diagnosis and tell them what the other shop did. That should narrow down where to look for whatever it is the other shop did wrong.

Grouse

Yeah it’s a tough spot. I was thinking the same thing as you, but they assure me they’ve been through electrical twice now, top to bottom. Their rationale on the cylinder/valve theory is that it’s likely a loose seat that they’ve seen before. Compression tests can’t find it because pressure just pushes everything together tight and it passes. At higher RPM’s that seat rattles loose and releases pressure causing the “miss.” They assume that the head is worn to heavily to simply replace other parts, but they’ll know more once they take it all apart. I know just enough about motors to follow their jist, but have never pulled apart an ATV motor.

I took it in today, and they’re just as frustrated as I am with it, but aren’t giving up on it. They’ve assured me they will re-check all of the work done previously to rework through the clutch replacement steps, looking to find anything they might have nicked or otherwise messed up.

They’re a pretty reputable dealership that I have good rapport with. I trust them, and they’re going to call back after yet another once-over and let me know what they’ll do. If that final diagnostic (which they’ve agreed to do for free) doesn’t pan out, I might have to do as you say?

I appreciate all of the advice others have offered, looking forward to a resolution on the matter. Will let you know what I find out!

Joel

Had a car one time…………as soon as it hit 55 mph it killed COLD! Dead, nothing. Coast to the side of the road start right up hit 55 and nothing. Dead!
Turns out a grounding wire to the body was broke, the air resistance would pull it far enough away to kill the motor. At stop it would fall back into place and run like a champ. Very, very weird. How dad ever diagnosed that I will never figure out.

Like FamousGrouse said, it should be running bad all the time if the valves are the issue.

Not all valve issue are obvious at low RPM’s. Been there, paid for that. Slap that bad boy on a DYNO and see what it is really doing.

Anything is possible. Including the hand of god himself holding the atv back.

It just isn’t likely. A valve issue of this severity just happpens right after all this other work? No way I’m betting on those odds.

Grouse

Check pulsar/crank sensor, ignition module, coil, plug cap and spark plug. Make sure they are the exact parts for your machine by part number. Also, make sure clutch is the right one. If its geared different the motor could be over speeding prematurely and engaging rev limiter. And also check the rubber diaphragm in the CV carb. Finally check intake boot since these are 20 yo rubber parts. Good luck.

I won’t go into details but I was in a similar (sort of) situation a few years back. I ended up trading my old machine in for a new one. In the end, it boiled down to how much was my peace of mind worth. By peace of mind I mean had I kept going with my old machine I would be left wondering if/when it might leave me stranded. Yeah, it was the expensive way to resolve my situation especially since I had just stuck a couple hundred bucks in repairs in it but I have zero regrets.

16-17 years for a neglected/beat on machine is a pretty good run if you ask me. If I read you right, since you are looking at potentially sticking 3 k into it for a fix that may or may not work I would seriously consider cutting your losses by trading it in on a new rig. Have you asked what the dealer would give you for trading in your current machine? My old machine had issues my dealer knew about and I was pleasantly surprised by what they offered me $ wise trading it in on a new machine.

castle-rock-clown wrote:

Check pulsar/crank sensor, ignition module, coil, plug cap and spark plug. Make sure they are the exact parts for your machine by part number. Also, make sure clutch is the right one. If its geared different the motor could be over speeding prematurely and engaging rev limiter. And also check the rubber diaphragm in the CV carb. Finally check intake boot since these are 20 yo rubber parts. Good luck.

Totally agree with this line of thinking. All the symptoms to me point to a sensor or ems issue thats impacting power at higher rpms.

Bad sensor or wrong part/part hooked up wrong.

I wouldn’t trade a machine where I didn’t know what was really wrong with it.

TheFamousGrouse wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>castle-rock-clown wrote:</div>
Check pulsar/crank sensor, ignition module, coil, plug cap and spark plug. Make sure they are the exact parts for your machine by part number. Also, make sure clutch is the right one. If its geared different the motor could be over speeding prematurely and engaging rev limiter. And also check the rubber diaphragm in the CV carb. Finally check intake boot since these are 20 yo rubber parts. Good luck.

Totally agree with this line of thinking. All the symptoms to me point to a sensor or ems issue thats impacting power at higher rpms.

Bad sensor or wrong part/part hooked up wrong.

I wouldn’t trade a machine where I didn’t know what was really wrong with it.

Great stuff, I’ll demand they look into this first.

Thanks all!

Joel

How did it come out Joel?

Yes, the suspense is killing me.

When I’m working on a machine, it’s like an addiction because I just love the feeling of figuring it out. When I get any engine to work on, I’m either working on it or thinking about it, it’s like that old Tetris game where you start seeing the shapes in your mind after you’re done playing.

Grouse